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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 730



PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: My 987.1 S journey from pre-purchase to making her mine Reply with quote

Hello Ladies and Gentleman,

First post here from a long time lurker that is looking to get his first Porsche. Have experienced a wide variety of Porsches through friends, from a 964, 993C2s, 993TT, 996.2 GT3 up to a 997s that a friend has posted on here about tracking recently. He made reference to me spending too much time detailing my cars as opposed to driving them. Least my paintwork is always immaculate though! This is a great forum and I have learnt a lot of stuff over the years, to the point where said mate comes to me for the knowledge. Sadly however, to date, I have never actually owned a Porsche so that is an issue that needs redressing.

*Note - The rest is a post I made pre-purchase

Currently drive a mint mkIV R32 which I love dearly as it handles whatever is asked of it. I am aware that the car I am looking after (Cayman 987.1 S) isn’t quite as practical, but the itch does need to be scratched.

So without further ado, if you will oblige, I would very much appreciate some information from this font of knowledge. I do apologise for the biblical length of this first post in advance!

Went to see this car as a marker, for the sole purposes of seeing how much space the car actually has inside to see if it covers my needs:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/cayman/2008-porsche-cayman-3-4s-petrol-manual/6138390

I personally thought from all of my research this car was overpriced, given the mileage and lack of options. As far as I could make out, other than this car being an ’08, there really wasn’t much else for them to be commanding such a high price. Couldn’t properly drive it as I was invited to do a loop of the industrial estate, so was not in any way bowled over. Not that it mattered, I know what these cars can do and will have the chance to drive more.

I have read a lot of threads on here and PH about the infamous issues, so let’s start with the big one:

Bore Scoring

This is supposedly a greater problem on the 3.4 due to less effective cooling with the increased bore size over the 2.7 version. I understand that it also has to do with the materials of the block, the pistons and their coatings. However, it is very difficult to gain any real feel for numbers. I was thinking a pre-purchase inspection might be a good idea, even if the car is coming from a Trader over private. Is that reasonable? Of course there are plenty of horror stories and people saying that a warranty is a must. The tone of the internet anecdotes does remind me of the R32’s fabled engine problem, supposedly ALL R32 blocks with suffer catastrophic engine failure due to the chains letting go. Yet on the OC, I can’t really think of any members that have actually had this happen. I am aware that this board and PH does have members that have suffered the curse of the 3.4 however.

I have read some very interesting posts by ‘Baz’ at Hartech explaining the issue, how one helps to avoid it and what they do to fix it. In short, what is the consensus to the bore score issue? I know it is not just the Cayman, but also the 997s 3.8 that can suffer this fate for example. The PH buying guide and Porsche Club GB make the issue sound blown out of proportion. I am aware that the 2.7 is regarded as the safer bet, but I want my next car to have more power than the R32 and not just be 200kg lighter.

Is fitting a LTT and perhaps using slightly thicker oil the way to go as easy preventative measures?


IMS/RMS Bearings

Knew about these issues facing Porsche engines for a long time. Probably through my mate having a mezger engine’d GT3 and reading stuff on here over the years. From what I have managed to gleam, these issues were mainly sorted on the older run cars, so buying an 07-08 car should largely safeguard against this. Is that correct?

Pre-purchase checks

What is the deal with ‘Bore scoping’, how much of a job is it and how much do they charge to come see a car with you roughly? Will the same outfit also be able to run diagnostics and check for ‘over-revs’ and the engine hours against the mileage etc?

The Options

Having driven my friend’s 997s with Sports Chrono Plus and PASM, I would ideally like them on the Cayman. But from what I can make out so far in my research, not many cars had these options. PASM giving you softer than the standard suspension when running 18s or 19s does sound like a benefit on our tired roads. As does the luxury of being able to go stiffer than standard at the touch of the button. Should I hold out for PASM over all else? And presumably problems on the PASM suspension is a lot more expensive to rectify?

I notice the Sports exhaust is distinguishable from the two separate circular tips, but what does the SE actually do? Is it just for purposes of the soundtrack?

Sports seats, I have found it difficult from looking at countless adverts to work out exactly what the sports seat are over the standard? Is it just the hardback?

Mileage

Would be looking to keep the car some time, so ideally was looking for a car with circa 40k on the clock. Have read some bits that conflict in that, some say, cars that haven’t been used very much may be more prone to the aforementioned issues. Is there any general consensus on this matter? I know maintenance and how it’s been driven account for condition the most, tougher of course to determine the latter.

Trader or Private

I acquired my R32 from a member of the R32oc, it was low miles and he was only the second owner. It was obvious that he looked after the car and knew of all the issues, so the car was sorted out of the box. When I test drove the Cayman above, I missed the rapport and the enthusiasm. A more personable relationship with the seller allows you to gain insight on how the car has been treated. You just don’t get this looking at countless ads where a lot of info about the car isn’t even stated. Is there any clear cut benefits with going through a dealer apart from allowing me to chop the R32 in and not having a patch without a car?

Servicing

In the VW R-line world, you wouldn’t trust them to put air in the tyres. All the board members get the cars serviced at recognised indies or do it themselves if they plan to hold onto the car for ever. So I have had my car well looked after by AMD in Thurrock for less than VW would have charged. I am of the impression that full OPC service history seems to be favourite. Is it best to keep the Porsche stamps coming? A couple of friends use the local Cambridge OPC and give good feedback.

Warranty

So this leads me into the final question, a lot of people on PH (not that I’m a member) state they wouldn’t drive a gen1 997 or 987 without one. Do many people on here have the Porsche warranty or other such cover in place in case of big repair bills should the worst happen? Was looking at the Hartech one, but that seems to just cover the labour unless I am mistaken?


I thank you if you have managed to get to the bottom of this post, let alone replied. Really appreciate any input!

Marty Wild

Last edited by The return of Marty Wild on Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:16 pm; edited 4 times in total
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


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2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Mr Wild!

You forgot the most important question- will you get a road bike in a Cayman? Smile

A few random thoughts on your questions-

Some useful resources here on bore scoring
http://www.porscheinspections.com/qanda.php#borescope

http://www.porscheinspections.com/content/downloads/M96_M97_GTPorsche.pdf

IMS bearings are very rarely an issue on Caymen as they all have the later type so you'd be very unlucky.

Engine rev reports are picked up from the ECU via PIWIS which is the Porsche diagnostic kit. Interpreting the data is a bit of an art form.
http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/

Sports exhausts just sound good and the factory ones are switchable. They don't make any difference to power.

Mileage; many bits such as suspension components deteriorate with age not mileage. As such, the mantra is 'buy on condition' and spec, rather than getting too hung up on miles.

Private vs dealer. Buying from a dealer gives some additional protection under consumer protection laws, and if a respected dealer, should have had problems attended to pre sale. What can seem like a private bargain may not be once you've shelled out for a warranty and repairs to get it up to your high standards. On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for buying a nice car from a private seller where you can see its been treated well and properly maintained.

OPC History; If a car had a full OPC history I would probably just take it to the OPC for servicing, but get other stuff done by a good specialist. Reports on OPCs vary depending on the dealership.

Warranty: Porsche is best, many are worth naff-all. Warrantywise is apparently OK.

Good hunting!
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Phil 997
Fuji


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 9870
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A proper welcome to the forum this time Marty lol .
Robert has addressed a few good points for you ,I would add
the pain that is borscore is potentially an issue with the 996, 997, 986, 987, earlier cayman so a whole swaith of cars from mid/late 90s up to 2009 and the facelifted cars. So as you can imagine that's a hell of lot of cars , it is clear that some are suffering borescore. unfortunately there is no definitive on % or numbers , So the internet as it so often does create a mythical number. There are two clear camps the "It's not if but when it happens "camp and the "It might happen to 10% of cars but that means 90% of cars wont suffer it "camp and a bit like religion there is no swaying people once you have made up your own mind which camp your in.
Those of us in the later camp still will take the recommended preventative advice as the other camp but for different reasons ours is to avoid being one of the 10% ,there's is because they want to stretch the time before the inevitable. Surprised .
which ever camp the measures are all good advise, LTT, Millers nano oil, not going over 3k revs until fully warm. etc.
It seems the tiptronics suffer more numbers than the manual due to the strain from using 2nd gear as the default pull away gear. also the bigger engines seem to again suffer more this it seems might be to do with thickness of material.

Re IMS , cars over 06 seem to have the newer bearings so not an issue and pre 06 cars can get the upgrade for about £1k.

Clearly a warranty is belt and braces and will protect should anything happen , yes Hartech is labour only on a rebuild, but if you are close enough to them it includes service and some other bits.

the Porsche warranty is a full warranty BUT you would not get a future proof rebuild you would just get a new engine with potentially the same floors.

Both of these cost about £100 per month

option 3 is to start a chocolate engine fund and works if you plan to stay in a Porsche for 5 or more years as you save £100 pm that's £1200 pa or £6k over 5 years so if it happens before that you just borrow and repay if it happens after that you have most of the cost of a rebuild and if it doesn't happen you have 6k to get the beers in with Grin

As you have already pointed out there are a number of manufactures cars out there with some mythical risk of the engine failing. With Borescore it is not catastrophic and the car will continue to rum very happily for many many thousands of miles just using a bit more oil than normal but these cars do tend to use a reasonable amount of oil anyway.

PPI and borescope it makes sense to to get an indy to carry this out on your chosen potential purchase as it might cost you £3/400 but that can be negotiated off the final price, as they are bound to spot a few minor things but you have the peace of mind the bigger issues are not lurking at the point you take over looking after the car. this can be done on both private and trade sales put down a provisional refundable holding deposit. if they are reluctant to allow that, there is a good chance they have some thing to hide and "run forest run".

Finally Do not be put off enjoying these cars the 911's and the mid engine cars are great drivers cars and make you grin.

hope that gives you some things to think about enjoy the search and keep us posted Thumb Grin Thumb

OH lastly mileage, for some bizarre UK only reason 7k PA seems to be the accepted annual mileage of these cars Dont know Question whereas 12/15k is ok for all other UK cars Question I have completely no idea why this oddity applies to UK owned Porsche cars only. Thumb
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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 730



PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:

You forgot the most important question- will you get a road bike in a Cayman? Smile



The answer to that question is a categorical no! I picked up on that pretty quickly! Would have to get the roof rack!

Thanks for those VERY informative links!

I am thinking of going through a trader so that I can PX the R32 and not face time without a car.

What's the deal with Sports seats? I really can't see any difference.
 
  
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Phil 997
Fuji


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol not a lot of difference mate, higher side bolsters on the seat and the extra shoulder bolsters and that's about it not even sure the cayman has the hardbacks on the sports seats.
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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 730



PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
A proper welcome to the forum this time Marty lol


Thanks a lot for the welcome and the info. I am a right stickler for warming cars up, will always take the long route if I am forced to drive a short distance. Will definitely get involved with the LTT and the nano oil.

I will definitely look into a PPI and as you say, just the mention of one could be a practical tool. I take it with people like JZM, 911v et al, their word can be taken on the matter of ECU data etc. But the non Pork specialists probably would require me to get an independent check done?
 
  
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Phil 997
Fuji


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 9870
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
A proper welcome to the forum this time Marty lol


Thanks a lot for the welcome and the info. I am a right stickler for warming cars up, will always take the long route if I am forced to drive a short distance. Will definitely get involved with the LTT and the nano oil.

I will definitely look into a PPI and as you say, just the mention of one could be a practical tool. I take it with people like JZM, 911v et al, their word can be taken on the matter of ECU data etc. But the non Pork specialists probably would require me to get an independent check done?


Yes , I would say your spot on with your thoughts there mate.
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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 730



PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Phil, I have mates that have got theirs through 911v and Paragon.

I suppose there is one other point we haven't broached, how much are the gen1 Caymans depreciating? How much would you expect to see a car lose in 5 years roughly?

A little part of me would hope that as Porsche are going 4pot Turbo and that these were the originals, that perhaps they might not lose too much?!
 
  
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pothole
Monza


Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 166
Location: Location Location


PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:

Some useful resources here on bore scoring
http://www.porscheinspections.com/qanda.php#borescope


I would personally and strongly advise not taking that advice on that website at face value.

They sell a service inspecting Porsche but do not offer bore checking as part of that service. They argue it's not necessary. In reality, it's not an option for their inspections, especially those done on location - it's impractical to inspect bores on driveways etc. So it's convenient for them to argue that it's not necessary.

That they also attempt to cast aspersions along the lines of the bore check being invasive is over egging things and really, really doesn't do their credibility any good. They even attempt to cast aspersions against outfits offering the check when it's quite clear they are only arguing against the check because it's not practical to include it in their £395-425 inspections. If they just said we don't think it's necessary and we are experienced in spotting the problem externally, I wouldn't really buy it but it would be at least reasonable. But the nonsense about it being invasive and the aspersions cast against other service providers really are too much.

Anyway, if any given car you are considering has a Porsche warranty, you may feel it's covered and doesn't need a bore check. For literally any other 3.4 from any vendor, get the bores checked by an experienced outfit who really know what they are looking at. Do not assume that a dealer with a great rep won't sell you a dud. It happens, even from the dealers with best reps.

The other option you have which can work quite well with a private sale is that if you find a car you like, you can get the seller to have 111-point check done at an OPC and have the warranty applied which you can then add to the purchase price.

The reason to do it this way round is that if there's any work that needs doing for the warranty to be applied that is clearly a negotiating point. Also, if you buy the car without the warranty, there's a time period you have to wait as a new owner to get a warranty applied and obviously if there are any issues found, it will be your problem. If you buy the car with an ongoing warranty, there's no gap in coverage.

Also, remember that the limit for the warranty was recently increased to 15 years old, which is helpful.

Personally, I think by far the best value are private cars sold with an ongoing Porsche warranty. I'd rather have such a car than one sold by pretty much any independent even at the same price, let alone cheaper.

Oh, and the round exhaust pipes do not necessarily indicate a sports exhaust. Check for the button on the dash for that!
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pothole
Monza


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:

Robert has addressed a few good points for you ,I would add
the pain that is borscore is potentially an issue with the 996, 997, 986, 987, earlier cayman so a whole swaith of cars from mid/late 90s up to 2009 and the facelifted cars.


Just for the record, this isn't correct.

Bore scoring is virtually unheard of on any of these cars prior to the introduction of the 996 3.6 for MY2002. It's not an issue on any 986.

The at-risk cars re bore scoring, due to various factors to do with the design and spec of the relevant engines which I won't go into, are:

996.2 3.6
997.1 3.6 and 3.8
987.1 3.4
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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Pothole, did wonder when you'd be along to say your piece. Have seen you talking about these issues in many a thread.

I have taken on board your opinions.
 
  
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T8
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:


I suppose there is one other point we haven't broached, how much are the gen1 Caymans depreciating? How much would you expect to see a car lose in 5 years roughly?



Given that early Boxsters have already bottomed out and bounced back I reckon that current prices of all 986/987 Boxsters and Caymans are about where they're going to stay.

Age / mileage / spec and history will always mean that there's cross-overs in asking prices across the models and generations but I don't think any will go down from where they currently are.

That said, the one you originally linked to does seem 'toppy' so make sure you buy at the right price.

The first 981s are starting to look great value for money now but they've got a way to go yet before they might impact on values of earlier generations.
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pothole
Monza


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. I don't think there's huge scope for depreciation. That said, these cars are mileage sensitive and if you use it a lot, it will impact value significantly.

In that scenario, the worst case scenario could still be a fairly big loss if you bought a toppy-priced lowish mile car for £18-20k and then put 10k a year+ miles on it. If the market went a bit sour you could find the resulting 80-100k car worth not much more than half what was paid for it.

Go near or over 100k and the value really gets hammered, unfortunately.

I bought my car on 40k miles for £16k two years ago. If I'd never used it, it would be worth not a million miles from that. But I've put another 40k on it and now with 80k on the clock, it's certainly worth significantly less than what I paid for it.

Buy a sensibly priced car, however, and you're not going to lose a huge amount, I don't think, especially if you are only putting moderate miles on it. The running costs won't be cheap, of course.
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The return of Marty Wild
Hockenheim


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Gents, comforting to hear they may have reached a bit of a plateau.

Chap at the dealership said he "had checked the market that very day and the value was spot on."

I wasn't personally convinced.

I have faired very well on the R32 if the asking prices on AT and PH are anything to go by.

I plan to get my other half a more practical car so not all of my miles have to be in the would be Cayman. In the 5 years I have had the R32, I have averaged 7,000 miles a year.

In terms of running costs, repair bills aside, I have done my homework and I do not think it is too much more to run than the R32. Tax £500 (for later models) instead of £300. Tyres, £50 a corner more. Servicing not much in it for the core maintenance. The major service I just had at AMD Thurrock was £600. Which leaves petrol, the R32 is very thirsty indeed, I expect a Cayman would be slightly better given the 200kg weight saving and non AWD transmission.

Repair bills though, I understand, are on another page when compared to a Golf.
 
  
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pothole
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPG will be down to how you drive it.

I've averaged 18 over 40k miles and I don't commute or drive is rush hour traffic much. But I do spank it at very opportunity.

If you drive it hard, it won't really be any better than an R32. if you're m ore moderate behind the wheel, it probably will be.
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The return of Marty Wild
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the general ruling on grills for the rad ducts? Are they worthwhile? Any drawbacks?

Also with the switchable PSE, is there always a button down where Sport / PASM / PSM is?
 
  
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TheItalian
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
What's the general ruling on grills for the rad ducts? Are they worthwhile? Any drawbacks?

Also with the switchable PSE, is there always a button down where Sport / PASM / PSM is?



As owner of a Cayman S 987.1 I haven't seen any issue so far, mine has 35K miles . As per price the one you are looking at could be overpriced if compared to others on sale, but few months ago prices were way higher! On the other hand it has 64K miles and no "toys", no sport seats, no sport chrono, no sport exhaust neither PASM! So it is overpriced!

Mine has everything and at the moment is pulling 335 BHP so more than a Gen 2..but for the price of a Gen 1! I may be selling it....
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks TheItalian,

I knew that was massively overpriced but it was reasonably close and I knew I had no plans of buying it.

I am leaning towards some Zunsport grills, good little first project I figure and I wan't to minimise risks where possible.

How is yours running 335bhp? 911 plenum, TB etc?!
 
  
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TheItalian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
Thanks TheItalian,

I knew that was massively overpriced but it was reasonably close and I knew I had no plans of buying it.

How is yours running 335bhp? 911 plenum, TB etc?!


well is overpriced if compared to others on sale, but at the same time the price is right if we consider that the others should be higher. Hope this makes sense. Now is not the time to sell let's say....but is a good time to buy!


Yes usual mods, just got the underdrive pulley recently will dyno the car tomorrow to see if there is any increase!
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear it's a good time to be buying!

Let us know how you get on with the dyno.
 
  
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