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tikkathree
Montreal


Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 539
Location: Suffolk


PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject: 200 Cell Cats but X Pipe or Crossovers? What's the verdict? Reply with quote

Okay so I'm building up to follow the plenum / big throttle body / air filter / sports cats path to join up with my Dansk Sports boxes.

I'm thinking about 200 cell cats and I'm probably going to source them through Design 911: I seem to have a choice of crossover pipework as OED or the X pipe arrangement.

Instinct suggests that a big nasty bend is less efficient than a straighter pipe but I'm open to persuasion from those who know more than me. Presumably if the X pipe was a big disaster it wouldn't be there for sale and you guys would all be running in the opposite direction.

Please guys, what's the wisdom of this forum?
_________________
Used to rally tuned Imps: all the noise at the back. Lately an MGF: top down, all the noise at the back.
Now? Engine slung out the back, flat six music in the form of a 996 Cabrio. Deep joy.
 
  
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14301
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 200 Cell Cats but X Pipe or Crossovers? What's the verdi Reply with quote

tikkathree wrote:
Okay so I'm building up to follow the plenum / big throttle body / air filter / sports cats path to join up with my Dansk Sports boxes.

I'm thinking about 200 cell cats and I'm probably going to source them through Design 911: I seem to have a choice of crossover pipework as OED or the X pipe arrangement.

Instinct suggests that a big nasty bend is less efficient than a straighter pipe but I'm open to persuasion from those who know more than me. Presumably if the X pipe was a big disaster it wouldn't be there for sale and you guys would all be running in the opposite direction.

Please guys, what's the wisdom of this forum?


You are at the same dilemma point we all reach, in the states fab speed are very pro one and sharkwerks very pro the other. and both give very good reasons why , so it really does boil down to read what both say about each type and make your decisions based on that. I am not a fan of the designtek stuff from Design 911 and there are some negative reports on here and other forums about the baffling in the exhausts braking up.
but as with all these things how many have been sold v the few shouted about issues. Grin by the way I went topgear 200 cell big bore x pipe and they are fantastic, I can't remember the facts on the xpipe but its along the line of , the mandrel bent pipes create a smooth flow but at the part where the touch there is some kind of merge collector set up which is what gives it the pops and crackles and assists with the tone. but there isas equally good reason for the straights , have a look on sharkwerks and fabspeeds sites. Thumb Grin
oh yes and great call on the Throttle body plenum sports filter set up don't forget you will need a remap to bring everything together and make sure your not running rich or lean.
Didn't see the 4" underdrive pulley on the list are you not up for that.
Keep us posted on what you do. Thumb Thumb
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tikkathree
Montreal


Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 539
Location: Suffolk


PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 200 Cell Cats but X Pipe or Crossovers? What's the verdi Reply with quote

Thanks, you make it sound like the issue is about as clear as 911uk GO or STAY.

Didn't I mention the EBS Underpants, sorry, underpulley kit?



Phil 997 wrote:
tikkathree wrote:
Okay so I'm building up to follow the plenum / big throttle body / air filter / sports cats path to join up with my Dansk Sports boxes.

I'm thinking about 200 cell cats and I'm probably going to source them through Design 911: I seem to have a choice of crossover pipework as OED or the X pipe arrangement.

Instinct suggests that a big nasty bend is less efficient than a straighter pipe but I'm open to persuasion from those who know more than me. Presumably if the X pipe was a big disaster it wouldn't be there for sale and you guys would all be running in the opposite direction.

Please guys, what's the wisdom of this forum?


You are at the same dilemma point we all reach, in the states fab speed are very pro one and sharkwerks very pro the other. and both give very good reasons why , so it really does boil down to read what both say about each type and make your decisions based on that. I am not a fan of the designtek stuff from Design 911 and there are some negative reports on here and other forums about the baffling in the exhausts braking up.
but as with all these things how many have been sold v the few shouted about issues. Grin by the way I went topgear 200 cell big bore x pipe and they are fantastic, I can't remember the facts on the xpipe but its along the line of , the mandrel bent pipes create a smooth flow but at the part where the touch there is some kind of merge collector set up which is what gives it the pops and crackles and assists with the tone. but there isas equally good reason for the straights , have a look on sharkwerks and fabspeeds sites. Thumb Grin
oh yes and great call on the Throttle body plenum sports filter set up don't forget you will need a remap to bring everything together and make sure your not running rich or lean.
Didn't see the 4" underdrive pulley on the list are you not up for that.
Keep us posted on what you do. Thumb Thumb
Floor
_________________
Used to rally tuned Imps: all the noise at the back. Lately an MGF: top down, all the noise at the back.
Now? Engine slung out the back, flat six music in the form of a 996 Cabrio. Deep joy.
 
  
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14301
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 200 Cell Cats but X Pipe or Crossovers? What's the verdi Reply with quote

tikkathree wrote:
Thanks, you make it sound like the issue is about as clear as 911uk GO or STAY.

Didn't I mention the EBS Underpants, sorry, underpulley kit?



Phil 997 wrote:
tikkathree wrote:
Okay so I'm building up to follow the plenum / big throttle body / air filter / sports cats path to join up with my Dansk Sports boxes.

I'm thinking about 200 cell cats and I'm probably going to source them through Design 911: I seem to have a choice of crossover pipework as OED or the X pipe arrangement.

Instinct suggests that a big nasty bend is less efficient than a straighter pipe but I'm open to persuasion from those who know more than me. Presumably if the X pipe was a big disaster it wouldn't be there for sale and you guys would all be running in the opposite direction.

Please guys, what's the wisdom of this forum?


You are at the same dilemma point we all reach, in the states fab speed are very pro one and sharkwerks very pro the other. and both give very good reasons why , so it really does boil down to read what both say about each type and make your decisions based on that. I am not a fan of the designtek stuff from Design 911 and there are some negative reports on here and other forums about the baffling in the exhausts braking up.
but as with all these things how many have been sold v the few shouted about issues. Grin by the way I went topgear 200 cell big bore x pipe and they are fantastic, I can't remember the facts on the xpipe but its along the line of , the mandrel bent pipes create a smooth flow but at the part where the touch there is some kind of merge collector set up which is what gives it the pops and crackles and assists with the tone. but there isas equally good reason for the straights , have a look on sharkwerks and fabspeeds sites. Thumb Grin
oh yes and great call on the Throttle body plenum sports filter set up don't forget you will need a remap to bring everything together and make sure your not running rich or lean.
Didn't see the 4" underdrive pulley on the list are you not up for that.
Keep us posted on what you do. Thumb Thumb
Floor


Floor Floor Floor yes it is a bit like that . I am obviously pro the xpipe option but each to there own and hopefully someone who had fitted 200cell straight pipes will give there 2p on it. Thumb Grin and good to know your looking at the underpants option also Thumb Grin
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragging this up again as Im considering the Topgear 200 cell x-pipe set up. Id like to get a higher pithc and tone like my old Kline system along with a little more noise so figured this was the best way.

I currently have Gemballa silencers fitted that are louder than std but a little muted as well so was going to give them a chance with new cat set up first then change out if required.

Has anyone else fitted the std bore x-pipe from Topgear that could give some feedback on how the noise changed?
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demon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 270



PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The performance benefit of a "x-pipe" over cross-overs is the merged point between the 2 pipes i.e. an "H-pipe" converted to an "x-pipe" will give some increase in performance, but mostly sound..... introduction of an "x-pipe" where a merging didn't previously exist is intended to create a secondary pulse scavenging effect later in the exhaust, thereby increasing flow (primary pulse scavenging effect is the collection of primaries on each manifold e.g. you engineer the timing of the pulse of each chambers exhaust stroke such that they meet there one after the other/overlap and effectively push/pull the next along, rather than all just "colliding" there)

the principle of pulse scavenging (as I tokenly understand it) it to create a better "flowing" exhaust that still maintains the "right" amount of back pressure, etc

.....a better flowing exhaust of this nature on a 996 will typically have more of a "howl at rising rpm", versus the "low end/idle grumble" of standalone mods to the backboxes (or an X-pipe earlier in the system of a classic front engine vCool....


or this is all complete "balls"....
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, Ive read up on the flow characteristic but in all honesty its the sound change Im looking for and indeed the howl rather than the rumble at preset.
If my wheels sell its getting ordered instantly haha.

Quick Q on fitment then, can this be done with silencers in place and all bolted up i.e. do the silencer pipe and cat pipes interact or as Im assuming the sleeve serves that purpose?
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demon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 270



PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
Quick Q on fitment then, can this be done with silencers in place and all bolted up i.e. do the silencer pipe and cat pipes interact or as Im assuming the sleeve serves that purpose?


with the x-pipe being a single piece replacing two cross-overs, in reality whoever's fitting will want to at least be able to loosen off basically every other section as needed... although should be avoidable with the manifolds themselves... will almost certainly involve unbolting the silencer on at least one side....

I think the engine mount nuts then needed to be wound out somewhat on my car(?) or something in that area... - swapping in a big single fixed piece basically does make the whole thing a bit more awkward, but the specific ball aches on one car to another will vary

FYI - I'd recommend ordering new stainless version bolts for each flange throughout the exhaust - existing bolts are rarely ever salvaged and SS should last a bit longer than stock bolts/hardware.... (although a decent size bag of each is no terrible thing to own!)
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Locosaki
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 Jul 2016
Posts: 292
Location: Fife


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be interested to see how you get on with this, I've just bought the cat bypass pipes for mine to get some more sound (I don't mind swapping cats out at MOT time)
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah they would be getting ordered, so what your saying is there is not enough room to remove existing cats and put in the x-pipe without removing at least some of the other components?

My bolts look original, i.e. not much left of them.
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14301
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demon wrote:
The performance benefit of a "x-pipe" over cross-overs is the merged point between the 2 pipes i.e. an "H-pipe" converted to an "x-pipe" will give some increase in performance, but mostly sound..... introduction of an "x-pipe" where a merging didn't previously exist is intended to create a secondary pulse scavenging effect later in the exhaust, thereby increasing flow (primary pulse scavenging effect is the collection of primaries on each manifold e.g. you engineer the timing of the pulse of each chambers exhaust stroke such that they meet there one after the other/overlap and effectively push/pull the next along, rather than all just "colliding" there)

the principle of pulse scavenging (as I tokenly understand it) it to create a better "flowing" exhaust that still maintains the "right" amount of back pressure, etc

.....a better flowing exhaust of this nature on a 996 will typically have more of a "howl at rising rpm", versus the "low end/idle grumble" of standalone mods to the backboxes (or an X-pipe earlier in the system of a classic front engine vCool....


or this is all complete "balls"....


Demon what a bloody good explanation mate Thumb Thumb
I cant comment on the topgear std xpipe as I used the big bore xpipe on mine.loved it Thumb Thumb
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BHZ661
Suzuka


Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1154
Location: Milton Keynes


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
Oh yeah they would be getting ordered, so what your saying is there is not enough room to remove existing cats and put in the x-pipe without removing at least some of the other components?

My bolts look original, i.e. not much left of them.


When i changed mine to X-pipe , just removed rear bumper and heat shields , and had the typical porsche rusted fixings to deal with on cats to manifolds
 
  
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14301
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
Dragging this up again as Im considering the Topgear 200 cell x-pipe set up. Id like to get a higher pithc and tone like my old Kline system along with a little more noise so figured this was the best way.

I currently have Gemballa silencers fitted that are louder than std but a little muted as well so was going to give them a chance with new cat set up first then change out if required.

Has anyone else fitted the std bore x-pipe from Topgear that could give some feedback on how the noise changed?


Dont forget when your ready to order call Alex the sales director at topgear in bridport , tell him your a 911uk forum member and ask him for 10% off the list price and he will do his best to assist you there Thumb
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Yas.SYC4S
Silverstone


Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Posts: 145



PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am looking to switch to an X pipe with 200cell cats. I have the OEM eisenmann PSE (sounds great, but think an X pipe will complete the package). I am also fitting a 997 GT3 TB, IPD Plenum along with BMC filter.
Is Topgear the best option? Anyone selling an X pipe?
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14301
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yas.SYC4S wrote:
I am looking to switch to an X pipe with 200cell cats. I have the OEM eisenmann PSE (sounds great, but think an X pipe will complete the package). I am also fitting a 997 GT3 TB, IPD Plenum along with BMC filter.
Is Topgear the best option? Anyone selling an X pipe?


Top gear is highly regarded on this forum, their prices and quality are great their customer support excellent and their products come with a lifetime you own the car warranty

Don't forget after you have fitted the GT3 TB/Plennum it will need a remap So suggest you either do it all together or all the bits before the TB/PLEN then get it remapped to bring everything together. Its a great set of mods you have planned had the same set up on my 997.1 and now on my 997.2 Thumb
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BHZ661 wrote:
coullstar wrote:
Oh yeah they would be getting ordered, so what your saying is there is not enough room to remove existing cats and put in the x-pipe without removing at least some of the other components?

My bolts look original, i.e. not much left of them.


When i changed mine to X-pipe , just removed rear bumper and heat shields , and had the typical porsche rusted fixings to deal with on cats to manifolds


So you didn't have to unbolt one or both silencer? Im wanting avoid that as I know they can be a pain.
In my head its a straight replacement without touching anything else. I will need new bolts throughout as there all knackered. One good thing is I believe my car only has pre cat lambdas so only need two instead of 4.

Now someone buy my wheels....
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Armagreggon85
Trainee


Joined: 04 Jan 2017
Posts: 74



PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience unbolting the silencers isn't a biggy.

Interested to find out how you get on, I really want to fit the 200 cell x-pipe, I've been hanging on to see if a 2nd hand one comes up for sale but I've been looking for about 12 months. Might have to bite the bullet....
 
  
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BHZ661
Suzuka


Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1154
Location: Milton Keynes


PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
BHZ661 wrote:
coullstar wrote:
Oh yeah they would be getting ordered, so what your saying is there is not enough room to remove existing cats and put in the x-pipe without removing at least some of the other components?

My bolts look original, i.e. not much left of them.


When i changed mine to X-pipe , just removed rear bumper and heat shields , and had the typical porsche rusted fixings to deal with on cats to manifolds


So you didn't have to unbolt one or both silencer? Im wanting avoid that as I know they can be a pain.
In my head its a straight replacement without touching anything else. I will need new bolts throughout as there all knackered. One good thing is I believe my car only has pre cat lambdas so only need two instead of 4.

Yes, will only have pre lambdas , i had already had the silencer ones of from previously changing silencers



Now someone buy my wheels....
 
  
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the back burner now as clutch is slipping.
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coullstar
Suzuka


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1217
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone that's fitted the Topgear X-pipe have you had to put longer clamps on compared to the standard ones? Where the link pipe fits to the silencer pipes.

Seems a very bog gap with mine when offered up with current set up.
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