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EGTE
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could we sticky this thread? It's got mega information in it.
 
  
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Niall996
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EGTE wrote:
Could we sticky this thread? It's got mega information in it.


Or misinformation!
 
  
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EGTE
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!
 
  
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EGTE wrote:
Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!


Agreed MODS can someone please sticky this thread as it's one of the best reads re this subject on the internet. And this subject is one one the most emotive regarding these cars. Thumb
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Niall996
Imola


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what the thread ultimately delivered though. I've seen the latest issue of Porsche and 911world and they have apparently just done a three issue spread on the M96/97. This
is a top magazines most concerted effort yet to get clarity I would imagine. I only got the third installment which includes a sort of round up of everyone and anyone in the M96/97 game and their various 'solutions.'

So you flip over the page after they do their final round up and what do you see? After all the analysis, deep investigation and lengthy conversation with the 'top people in the industry,' you see a half page advert from L&N with the statement 'Fact; the IMSB is semi submerged in oil. Oil is not the problem - it's the bearing.' Right across on the opposite page is another half page DOF advert with a big statement, 'it's not the bearing, it's the oil feed,' and also on that same double page advert spread is a half page advert from Hartech who from what I can interpret and extrapolate out of their lengthy posts don't have much time for either of the two so called solutions advertised next to their own advert. Yet Hartech are mentioned as prime consultants for the article - how frustrating must that be!

It's all just a bit absurd at this point, descending into the realms of ludicrous comedy that a magazine does what appears to be such a huge investigation and yet ultimately end up with the key players still at complete odds to each other, all featured in the same summary article.

And of course, all the time, the great elephant in the room, the ongoing borderline criminal silence from Porsche themselves. Who seem to have absolutely nothing whatsoever to contribute or ever have. I think it's time for a 911uk open letter to Porsche to be honest.

Last edited by Niall996 on Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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T8
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
EGTE wrote:
Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!


Agreed MODS can someone please sticky this thread as it's one of the best reads re this subject on the internet. And this subject is one one the most emotive regarding these cars. Thumb


This thread is being reviewed by the Mods team/ 911uk admin.
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JTT
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:

So you flip over the page after they do their final round up and what do you see? After all the analysis, deep investigation and lengthy conversation with the 'top people in the industry,' you see a half page advert from L&N with the statement 'Fact; the IMSB is semi submerged in oil. Oil is not the problem - it's the bearing.' Right across on the opposite page is another half page DOF advert with a big statement, 'it's not the bearing, it's the oil feed,' and also on that same double page advert spread is a half page advert from Hartech who from what I can interpret and extrapolate out of their lengthy posts don't have much time for either of the two so called solutions advertised next to their own advert. Yet Hartech are mentioned as prime consultants for the article - how frustrating must that be!


I think the key is in the above. Hard to navigate through all the promotion. Starts to sound of "Sea Monkeys" and "penile enlargement" Razz
 
  
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem with magazines is it's hard to tell whether the supposed article is genuinely a fact based unbiased investigation or a sales led and advertiser funded advert hiding behind the guise of investigative journalism .
These mags are all about sales and ads and of course if that was the case the stories would be very biased recommending the advertisers and suggesting the fixes were done and would be wooley and inconclusive.
It seems highly suspicious to me that there are huge half page ads from the companies involved who clearly don't have it in there commercial interest for there to be a cheap easy solution ,and it really doesn't sound like an unbiased representative article.
So I for one will be treating it as the advertiser focused sales campaign that it appears to be and will be taking it with a large pinch of salt. Bandit
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EGTE
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for stickying this, mods Thumb Thumb

I'd far sooner believe this thread than a magazine article, as the guys say above.
 
  
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Niall996
Imola


Joined: 07 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll tell you where I stand on this today. It's a bit of a 'if you can't beat them, join them' scenario really. I remember when the green movement was beginning to get quite significant, watching the CEO of a very large global company saying on TV, 'Look, I have no idea if it's true or not, but if our customers think its true then we have to go along with it. Simple.'

There are certain realities at play when it comes to IMS. Porsche will probably never ever comment let alone do anything remotely consumer centric like provide a cost effective (or free - Lol!) approved Porsche solution.

Certain magazines will continue to cut and paste material regardless of whether it's been long disproven or not. They're not investigative journalists or engineer'.s I don't particularly blame them. They're in the same boat as the rest of us.

The market for M96/97 preventative work is pretty significant. 150K cars or so! It's pretty lucrative and a number of companies will seek market share in that space, with various 'solutions.' So for many years to come, there is going to be a continuous marketing campaign in the magazines and on the net to drive market share of the various M96/97 preventative /cures'. And when every single IMS bearing has been replaced along with a Direct Oil Feed added and IMS Guardian's installed etc. etc., and the market has dried up, they'll all suddenly be due a 're-replacement' at 40k miles for about a grand or your engine will implode.

So the white noise and cacophony is not going to go away. 996/7 buyers guides will be a quarterly regular on Total911 for years to come. Myths and solutions will be recirculated time and time again as new buyers enter the market continuously. New videos will emerge on You Tube by new engineering companies keen to get a piece of the action, in a market where a 10euro bearing can sell for 900euro. We're talking Hermes type margins here. All facilitated by the vacuum created by the cynical cronies at Porsche A.G. And what magazine journalist is ever going to doorstep one of the continuous line of PR men and PR 'engineers' sent to them to promote the latest PR stunt/Halo model (that is already sold out). Not one because that'll be the end of their cosy relationship and invites to drives these cars. I have yet to come across one single instance of a Porsche magazine journalist asking one single Porsche representative in print or on video about the issue in spite of the fact hat their busy printing about three articles a year on it. FFS!

So ultimately, and I see it happening already, every 996 owner is going to have to get it done if they want to sell their car onwards at it's real value. The question will be routine - 'have you have the bearing done mate?'

Until someone wins a legal case against one of the 'solution' suppliers whose product fails or wins a case against a magazine pushing a certain products that subsequently fail, the world at large has bought into it and it is therefore de facto the same as having to have a decent set of tyres on your car when your selling , or cleaning it!. So if you're getting that clutch changed, you might as well get that IMS box ticked regardless of whether you believe in L&N's bearing or whomever's or not. Whether you need it or not doesn't matter. You may well come to sell the car before the next clutch job and you're guaranteed to get the 'what's the story with the bearing mate? question. The tidal wave of marketing cannot be withstood. Fear marketing is the oldest version in the book. In fact epitomized by L&N's now infamous advertising 'pop, pop bang!' campaign.

So, suck it up, and pop it in!
 
  
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't time to read back through this whole contribution wither - and we haven't posted on this subject for a while because everyone seems to be getting the message - but I think to repeat our post of Dec 2015 achieves two things - firstly that not every specialist exploits concern to make exaggerated claims and secondly that the power of Internet Forums eventually allows a message to get across - amply described in the last post.

Just one additional statement I would like to convey and reinforce is that is that the larger IMS bearing in the later cars really is a solid reliable solution (especially with the outer seal removed).

In the years ahead many engines will need a rebuild anyway and it usually costs little different to wait for an early bearing to fail (or a liner to score or crack) and rebuild it with the best solution and may prove a better investment than trying to avoid the IMS bearing failure only to find the solution chosen didn't last that long or something else failed to require a rebuild anyway when the most reliable solution could be incorporated at the same time.

This is a relevant extract of what we posted last year:-

We are not only aware of all the types mentioned (thanks) but have seen most of them having failed.

The lateral loads on the IMS are not established but a ball bearing is designed to work both ways and with a splash oil supply and we have had discussions with a lifetime bearing manufacturing executive (who happened to spend a lot of time researching all the options and available bearings and owns a Boxster S) and he agreed that he thought it would need something better than a flat roller bearing end face (unless it also had a pressure oil feed) - but no one will have tested enough to destruction to confirm or deny anything - except that we receive and repair 4 to 5 engines/week (which has increased from around 2 to 3/week a few years ago) and I think the feedback this provides about the condition of original bearings, worn bearings and different IMS kits combined with our basic engineering knowledge is about as good a clue as to what the true situation is that anyone could provide.

You may remember (or can check back and find) that we were very unimpressed with a idea of a ceramic type many years ago (before they were in general use and known to fail) and have had two in here having failed in the last few weeks - I seem to remember we suggested they would be no better than the cheaper std bearing (possible worse?).

But you must appreciate (as we do) those specialists that try and provide solutions for problems that the manufacturer should have sorted out for their customers first. Usually spending money to genuinely try and find excellent solutions (and I do think they are more motivated by a belief in the success of their product and how it will help owners than doing it purely for commercial rewards) - but if the main manufacturer with a superb reputation can get it wrong - it is expecting a lot for most general technician specialists to find a better solution on much more limited funds in with far less test opportunities and resources. So I prefer not to knock those that don't always get it right while being frank about the difficulties some problems create that are often almost impossible to improve without huge expense and modifications.

The IMS bearing is a difficult problem to improve on in the space available without huge cost while the larger ball bearing seems (from all feedback and experience) to be totally reliable (and is available).

What to do will unfortunately always be a gamble and it is the odds that should influence decision making.

Unless there is an obvious reason to get into the smaller bearing in situ - I suggest it is a better bet to ignore it (or take the seal out if you are close by with the flywheel off and know what to do so you don't loose cam timing and can replace the outer carrier without straining the weak spindle).

If you were lucky enough to find the bearing damaged but having spread no debris anywhere - it must be worth carefully replacing the bearing and spindle.

We are reluctant to retail our replacement bearing, spacer and spindle kit because we suspect some owners will damage their engines trying to fit it (or have a premature failure later) but we will do so ourselves if requested - but without our usual cast iron guarantees. There are plenty of others now with their own kits that are prepared to fit them for their customers.

I think this whole range of cars are really superb - among the very best cars (on the whole) that Porsche ever produced and far less expensive than they would have been if the engines were more reliable - in fact - looked at in numbers - they represent superb buys with relatively little risk - and if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a failure - it is not too expensive to not only repair it but also improve those weak areas to result in an even better car that will appreciate in value.

It would seem to me to be a great shame to spend a lot on an apparent IMS "upgrade" only to find that later the engine needs rebuilding anyway and could have then been fitted with a much better solution for little more cost at the same time.

You must make allowances when I offer replies that sometimes I am referring to a theoretical issue someone has raised, or countering an incorrect technical conclusion or opinion and not always discussing what to do.

Unfortunately there is no good easy reliable permanent answer to the IMS small bearing issue without stripping and rebuilding the engine but plenty of good reliable and affordable "upgrades" if the engine is apart - as long as you also avoid those issues where some specialists do (probably out of ignorance or greed) promote a solution that has been proven to be short lived and often results in an engine requiring a second rebuild shortly after the first.

END OF REPEAT!

I think the above shows that we at least didn't try and exploit the situation and did try and provide well researched answers and that despite the often used accusations of "scare mongering" plodding on with accurate responses eventually achieves some understanding for readers that is useful to all.

The original double row bearing created more running in metallic particles to mix with the remaining grease and often lead to premature failure - but if they survived that and the seal was worn to allow oil to enter (as most remaining are old enough now to be) they often then managed to last very well and as most early failures were covered by warranties this may have influenced statistics taken later that mask the true picture.

Baz
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Niall996
Imola


Joined: 07 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxdvSq_byZw

Interesting little video and comments!
 
  
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wasz
Kyalami


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1805


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niall996 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxdvSq_byZw

Interesting little video and comments!


"hybrid ceramic bearings are superior in every way and they don't really have any disadvantage over regular steel ball bearings"

This guy is not an engineer.
 
  
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
Niall996 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxdvSq_byZw

Interesting little video and comments!


"hybrid ceramic bearings are superior in every way and they don't really have any disadvantage over regular steel ball bearings"

This guy is not an engineer.


+1.
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landymm1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

picture of the larger type IMS bearing and housing
 



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Julian T
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great information here, thanks thumbsup

Ok.. so I can remove the 3 bolted cover, look inside and see the bearing and seal. If I were to pull that seal off, (call it the outer) I'd then see the bearings in their case. On the far side of the bearings there is another seal (call it the inner).

I can't see much point in just taking off the outer seal - where is the benefit? Surely it's the inner seal that is key if I wanted to get more oil in the bearing.

Is it possible to get a small drill (by hand) between the bearings/case and puncture the inner plastic seal in several places?

I have no idea what bearing is in my C4 (100k miles 3.4 2000) but am planning a clutch replacement soon so should do something whilst it's accessible.
 
  
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Harv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julian T wrote:
Great information here, thanks thumbsup

Ok.. so I can remove the 3 bolted cover, look inside and see the bearing and seal. If I were to pull that seal off, (call it the outer) I'd then see the bearings in their case. On the far side of the bearings there is another seal (call it the inner).

I can't see much point in just taking off the outer seal - where is the benefit?


I think maybe you should re-read the thread.

What do you suppose are the effects of removing that seal... (Considering the bearing is surrounded by lots of oil and a large ims chain drive gear) Confused
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Joined: 04 Oct 2010
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Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Julian T wrote:
Great information here, thanks thumbsup

Ok.. so I can remove the 3 bolted cover, look inside and see the bearing and seal. If I were to pull that seal off, (call it the outer) I'd then see the bearings in their case. On the far side of the bearings there is another seal (call it the inner).

I can't see much point in just taking off the outer seal - where is the benefit?


I think maybe you should re-read the thread.

What do you suppose are the effects of removing that seal... (Considering the bearing is surrounded by lots of oil and a large ims chain drive gear) Confused


And where would the swarf go from drilling holes in the rear seal, if you could get a drill bit past the bearing cage in the first place.
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julian T wrote:
Great information here, thanks thumbsup

Ok.. so I can remove the 3 bolted cover, look inside and see the bearing and seal. If I were to pull that seal off, (call it the outer) I'd then see the bearings in their case. On the far side of the bearings there is another seal (call it the inner).

I can't see much point in just taking off the outer seal - where is the benefit? Surely it's the inner seal that is key if I wanted to get more oil in the bearing.

Is it possible to get a small drill (by hand) between the bearings/case and puncture the inner plastic seal in several places?

I have no idea what bearing is in my C4 (100k miles 3.4 2000) but am planning a clutch replacement soon so should do something whilst it's accessible.


Just as a initial comment, I'd strip the seals off a new one and exchange them, rather than just strip an existing IMSB - you've done the hard work and or expense to get here, no point in not fitting a brand new IMSB! (circa £70)

Anyway, back to you methodology description, yes you can pull the "outer" seal without removing the IMSB, but the engine oil you want access to is on the inner face, and drilling holes is not possible on dual-row any way due to the two offset twin-races (and although possible on single-row, you would be mental to attempt as you could damage IMSB and certainly create debris the other side of the inner seal to be swept around the IMS, IMSB and engine in general), I suspect the drilling idea would not even be very effective in oil flow terms either.

Just pull the IMSB (takes a few seconds) and either strip both seals completely, or ideally fit brand new IMSB with both seals stripped.

Here are a couple of YouTube vids to show how pointless the drilling idea would be:


Open Youtube Page



Open Youtube Page
 
  
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bazhart
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be a little more cautious than that.

This bearing provides the end float to position the whole shaft and chain. As you remove the three holed carrier it pulls the IMS towards you and bends the chains.

When the carrier is far enough out to slip off the end of its larger diameter to become loose - the chains both pull the shaft out of the centre line and this can lead to them jumping a tooth and miss-aligning the cam timing.

Undoing the two tensioners can help (one for crank to IMS and one for IMS to camshafts), but any movement of the shaft can pull the chains and they have been used to running on plastic runners and will have created some grooves by now that the sideways movement can chip if you are unlucky or damage the chain link side plates that are brittle and can initiate a fatigue crack later or pin failure.

When you come to replacing the "spider" (the three bolted end plate) you find that it starts to fit the large diameter into the crankcase hole at the very same time the shoulder on the centre shaft runs up against its own shoulder and it is very difficult to pull the centre of the s haft over far enough to get both to engage at the same time and without losing the cam timing.

The standard spindle has a recces in the centre to hold an "O" ring that makes it very weak in bending and while trying to push it over far enough to get the parts to line up you apply side loads that could create a crack initiation and eventual fatigue failure.

Finally the outer spider seal is designed for assembly during 2 halves of the casing shutting together and not sliding into a hole.

If you were also changing the bearing you can remove the old one with a slide hammer (but then need a support to align the shaft so it remains in the right position while you are removing it). The old bearing had a sprung clip best removed with a shock from a sliding hammer but the later circlip retention can allow a puller to remove the bearing.

Using a puller with the old sprung clip can sometimes result in it becoming entrapped and damage the clip groove = engine rebuild.

There is no benefit whatsoever in removing the inner seal - the oil feed is from the outside and inside is just a tube partly full of old oil. If you remove it you need to remove the bearing with the associated problems mentioned above. However if fitting a new bearing it makes little difference if you do or do not also retain an inner seal.

This is all good reason to be reluctant to carry out this work (although we will and do so when our customers request it).

One of the problems for us is that - imagine that by bad luck a chain or tensioner runner broke some time after fitting a new bearing - who is then responsible for a whole engine rebuild to fix it and all the new gaskets seals and lubricants that are essential?

With experience, tools and care failures would be extremely rare and probably the majority of "home mechanics" would be lucky and get away with doing it themselves - but it would just take one failure for a business to regret doing it - because you would need to successfully carry out hundreds of similar repairs to cover the cost of just one going wrong resulting in a full rebuild!

With experience, some special tooling and familiarity with the job - specialists usually carry it out very well but for a one off first time without special tools - I would be very wary indeed. There are plenty of specialists happy and experienced at this job and I would recommend you find one happy to do it for you rather than struggle yourself.

Good luck anyway.

Baz

p.s. before there are complaints about my long answers - just try the job yourself and then feel free to comment.
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