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NXI20
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Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3223
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm450exc wrote:
And will be using RS19 next.


Why?

RS19 are not as good a pad for track work, particularly on the front. I have heard of people occasionally using them on the rear in an effort to eliminate squeal when on the road but never come across anyone using them on the front.
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Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
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Senoj
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you look at the RS19 spec the difference is very marginal. Before the 29 came along they were the de facto pad i thought.

I say this as i have a set of 19's in the garage which will go on next. My exhaustive Internet research (a browse through google) suggests there's not a whole lot of difference. RS29 designed to work a little hotter?
 
  
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NXI20
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Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3223
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pad specs don't tell the whole story though. The wear rate on the RS19 is significantly higher which is why the RS29 was developed as a pad that would last better for endurance race use.

By all means try them, but I think you'll find the RS29 is superior in every way.
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Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
1978 Carrera SC Barn Find in Red (restoration project)
 
  
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Any pad wil wear like that. The bottom of the caliper grips first and hardest, the "front" of the grip so to speak. The pistons are different sizes to compensate and even out the pressure but its still that part of the pad that hits the disc first.



So are we saying this is normal? This was the first time I've used R29 pads not noticed this on my other pads (PF). Anyway I've gone back to PF08 pads.
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NXI20
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Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3223
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they will all wear faster on the leading edge. Those pics are particularly extreme & I suspect that there's a tiny amount of air in the calliper at the top which is why the pads have barely worn there. It's more normal to see a difference of one or two millimetres top to bottom on a half-worn pad. The PF's will exhibit this wear pattern too.
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Need Alcon discs or Pagid pads? https://uber9s.com

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Yes, they will all wear faster on the leading edge. Those pics are particularly extreme & I suspect that there's a tiny amount of air in the calliper at the top which is why the pads have barely worn there. It's more normal to see a difference of one or two millimetres top to bottom on a half-worn pad. The PF's will exhibit this wear pattern too.


Ok thanks, already done a brake fluid change and bleed, so will see how we get on Thumb
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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1264
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
Are you sure it's fade? The reason I ask is that the 997 abs system is different to 996s. You can get the abs system to cut in and trigger what people refer to as the ice mode. Basically it feels like fade, peddle goes soft and you seem to have about 60% or less of your normal braking force, but it's the abs system going nuts. Can be triggered in 2 ways bumpy track surfaces within braking zone and going to aggressive from throttle to brakes.

When it happens if you come off the brake and re apply does it cure itself ? If so this is the abs system and you need to modify your braking style or buy a cup abs system at £8000 Sad

If every thing else looks ok I expect this is what's happening.

Some back ground here.

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/534934-well-abs-ice-mode-finally-got-me.html

http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/866677-abs-delete-and-ice-mode.html


http://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/801844-ice-mode.html




That is fascinating to read. Good sleuthing Jon.
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3582
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Yes, they will all wear faster on the leading edge. Those pics are particularly extreme & I suspect that there's a tiny amount of air in the calliper at the top which is why the pads have barely worn there. It's more normal to see a difference of one or two millimetres top to bottom on a half-worn pad. The PF's will exhibit this wear pattern too.



The pads in the picture are pretty much identical to the ones that I just replaced on my 997.2 GT3 - it is normal for the car on Pagids. Which explains much (see my earlier comment about the OP's symptoms being the de-facto indicator that the pads are spent). The 997.2 wears its pads much more trapezoidally than the 996 used to and there are only 2 ways around it that I know of. The first is to flip the pads when part worn as Danny suggested. The other is to spend the crazy money charged in the UK for Endless pads...

Also noteworthy while we are on the subject is that the 997.2 wears the rear pads on the outer face faster than the inner, but in general uniformly rather than in the trapezoid fashion of the fronts. I am not convinced that there is much to be gained by flipping those, but it is handy to know that the one that you can just look at on the outside is the one wearing faster and that it ought to be uniform top to bottom.
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4993
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All brands of pads do this. Its an artefact of the six pistons and long (ish) pad rather than the pads maker i believe.
 
  
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Cunno
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Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the uneven wear create a long pedal as per the OPs problem and by rotating or changing pads cure it? Or do we think his issue will remain?
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3582
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
All brands of pads do this. Its an artefact of the six pistons and long (ish) pad rather than the pads maker i believe.


The time when I ran a set of Endless they didn't do it. I seem to recall that the OE ones wore fairly even too, but given that they only lasted 2.5 track days that doesn't really matter... Everything else that I have tried did though.
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3582
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
How does the uneven wear create a long pedal as per the OPs problem and by rotating or changing pads cure it? Or do we think his issue will remain?


The issue will present eventually (it goes long when you are down to minimal pad depth), but flipping the pads so that they wear evenly will get you more life out of them before it comes to that. If you aren't in the habit of having less than 2mm of pad depth then you won't experience it. I don't know if it is thermal, because the pistons are that much closer to maximum extension or something else causing it though. Just that it is what happens.
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Black 997 GT3 3.8 CS - Acquired for the 2012 season and beyond
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4993
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disco wrote:
Senoj wrote:
All brands of pads do this. Its an artefact of the six pistons and long (ish) pad rather than the pads maker i believe.


The time when I ran a set of Endless they didn't do it. I seem to recall that the OE ones wore fairly even too, but given that they only lasted 2.5 track days that doesn't really matter... Everything else that I have tried did though.


You change your own pads and measured them then ? Very Happy

I have used and changed myself, so taken them out and looked at them, even measured with digital thing , Pagid, PF and Endless, all do it.
 
  
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disco wrote:
Cunno wrote:
How does the uneven wear create a long pedal as per the OPs problem and by rotating or changing pads cure it? Or do we think his issue will remain?


The issue will present eventually (it goes long when you are down to minimal pad depth), but flipping the pads so that they wear evenly will get you more life out of them before it comes to that. If you aren't in the habit of having less than 2mm of pad depth then you won't experience it. I don't know if it is thermal, because the pistons are that much closer to maximum extension or something else causing it though. Just that it is what happens.


But the photos show 5mm left on the thinnest part, so not sure that the above will resolve this issue?
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mm450exc
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 80



PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody put on a different set of calipers? Something like Alcon for example?
 
  
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4993
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
Disco wrote:
Cunno wrote:
How does the uneven wear create a long pedal as per the OPs problem and by rotating or changing pads cure it? Or do we think his issue will remain?


The issue will present eventually (it goes long when you are down to minimal pad depth), but flipping the pads so that they wear evenly will get you more life out of them before it comes to that. If you aren't in the habit of having less than 2mm of pad depth then you won't experience it. I don't know if it is thermal, because the pistons are that much closer to maximum extension or something else causing it though. Just that it is what happens.


But the photos show 5mm left on the thinnest part, so not sure that the above will resolve this issue?


Theres 5mm left because they haven't been flipped around hence why you need to keep an eye on them. Its probably (maybe?) a bit too late for these to be flipped. This happens on the road too just not to the same extent.

This is all assuming that the OP's heat issue is the culprit.
 
  
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm450exc wrote:
Anybody put on a different set of calipers? Something like Alcon for example?


Some of the Rennlist guys run stoptech

http://www.stoptech.com/products/big-brake-kits
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mm450exc
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 80



PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rear pads good as new.

The only solution here looks to be new front rotors.
 
  
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2165
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Cunno wrote:
Disco wrote:
Cunno wrote:
How does the uneven wear create a long pedal as per the OPs problem and by rotating or changing pads cure it? Or do we think his issue will remain?


The issue will present eventually (it goes long when you are down to minimal pad depth), but flipping the pads so that they wear evenly will get you more life out of them before it comes to that. If you aren't in the habit of having less than 2mm of pad depth then you won't experience it. I don't know if it is thermal, because the pistons are that much closer to maximum extension or something else causing it though. Just that it is what happens.


But the photos show 5mm left on the thinnest part, so not sure that the above will resolve this issue?


Theres 5mm left because they haven't been flipped around hence why you need to keep an eye on them. Its probably (maybe?) a bit too late for these to be flipped. This happens on the road too just not to the same extent.

This is all assuming that the OP's heat issue is the culprit.


Understand that, but are we saying that running pads down to 5mm or less will give you the issue OP has with long pedal? Being a Northerner I take then to the back plate on PF and not suffered this issue. The one set of R29s I've used had the same angle of wear as Ops but I'd gone into the backing plate at bottom edge. (hadn't spotted the issue of uneven wear it was the grinding noise that alerted me), but didn't suffer from the long pedal described.
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm450exc wrote:
Rear pads good as new.

The only solution here looks to be new front rotors.


Don't follow rotor look ok?
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