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bryce
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 24 May 2012
Posts: 315



PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the replies so far lads. Just had a read over so a few points to think about when I'm in my bunk tonight.

Few quick points / questions:

Can I actually get comprehensive insurance for track days including tourist days at Ring?
It is my intentions to do as many as possible days in the year - which may not be a lot sometimes.
I absolutely have no intentions of selling the car - she's a keeper.
Has anyone compared to a set up M3?


Keep the thoughts coming. Excellent comments / ideas so far and reminds me why this is the only forum I frequent nowadays.
 
  
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its what its for, do it. Get it out of your system. Just be aware and realistic about the costs. It will develop a slight patina, no getting away from it, all fixable though when you want to do it.

Ive reduced the euro trips in mine for a while, rising values means an additional £500 per day to insure it and a larger excess.

For a change of tack i am "developing " a ring toy in the shape of an e46 M3. I have set a limit of £15k (which is almost busted and still a bit more to do, it needs to be 18 really or over 20 with a supercharger Floor ) does it give the out and out andenaline pump thrill of the Porsche? Not quite but not bad really. In fact in many ways its more fun trying to get it to go as quick. But then i am in the lucky position of having many many great ring drives in GT3's in my memory banks and if those weren't there there is no way i could leave the Porsche at home. Im surprised in your experience with the E90 though, yes they are a bit weighty but modded and lightened they are very very capable.

I would also add, and this is after a discussion with Nick W last week about what the fun part is. You do this for fun, theres no money or medals to win. After a while pounding about on your own it can get a bit well, samey, you need to have a play out there and thats only good when the machinery is relatively equal and you have some trust in those about you, those are the best and most enjoyable track days in my experience.
 
  
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isysman
Zolder


Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 5378
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
isysman wrote:


Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days.



eh! Confused

I did track days in my Triumph Dolomite in 1982.


What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.
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bryce
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 24 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 92 is supposed to be fairly well set up with the suspension and geometry that I have. I just felt on the Ring trip I had in July that it wasn't quite feeling as good as I hoped it would. It feels heavy. It's rolls a lot through corners both in body and twisting. The steering isn't as precise as the GT3. I drove my friends CSL and that felt like the car should - light, precise, nimble, fun.
 
  
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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 768
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.[/quote]

What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.[/quote]

track days have been around for a long time but the more recent thing is the availability of the venues and the lower cost.

in the old days it was only the premium circuits and it was high costs. none of this 'kill the front of your car' airfield crap.

I first went on the nurburgring for tourist laps in 1998!! Deutsch marks back then. it was all bikes and german played 964 RS and 993 RS back then. GT3 mk1 appeared in 1999 and they were soon at the ring.

e92 M3 is not a good car from the start to take on track. its far to heavy to start with and you have prob spent 1000s on it to even get it someway useful on track. too heavy on consumables. CSLs and GT3s are expensive to run on track. go for sth smaller for track work or get a purpose built car and trailer it there.

a clio cup car or even a BMW kumho car would be far better as have the stiff shell, seam welded, full cage and other bits you need.

E92 BMWs are for cruising across Europe in. no more.
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NXI20
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Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3213
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isysman wrote:
T8 wrote:
isysman wrote:


Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days.



eh! Confused

I did track days in my Triumph Dolomite in 1982.


What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.


You're wrong. Both RMA & Goldtrack have run trackdays continuously for over 20 years, BookaTrack is 15 years old and there were others back then that are no more. I did my first trackday at Silverstone in 1978 & yes, way back then they were a very rare event.

Circuits offering their own trackdays are a relatively new thing that's happened over the last few years; they saw how much demand there was via the bookings they took from regular trackday organisers & wanted a slice of that pie, frequently undercutting the very organisers who had painstakingly built the market up over many years.
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1027
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure that you can compare a CSL to any great big barge like an e92. I have never driven a e92 although would not mind giving one a go. I have driven something probably not a long way away from it though, the e39 M5. Also a V8 and at +1750kg a lovely motor but ..... (not on track). In fact I even had a loan car e46 328i recently and I thought there was something wrong with it after driving my CSL (1350kg).

I would definitely track the GT3 and all the more reason if it is a keeper. All that rubbish about "never tracked". It is a joke. Unless you have had it since new most track orientated cars have been on track. You still see it on CSL adverts, if you can find one.

I track my car two or three times a year and only ever on the Nordschleife and it does not have to be that expensive. Tyres, brakes, servicing and the ferry/hotel/petrol and then only if you have a crash or wish to modify your car will it become expensive.

What weight have you lost on the e92? I am sure someone can recommend some coilovers to stop so much body roll. The Nordschleife Schrick e92 always seem to pile around the track alright although these are clearly heavily modified.

Track the GT3 and see if the worry of stone chips et cetera outweighs the enjoyment.

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isysman
Zolder


Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 5378
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
isysman wrote:
T8 wrote:
isysman wrote:


Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days.



eh! Confused

I did track days in my Triumph Dolomite in 1982.


What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.


You're wrong. Both RMA & Goldtrack have run trackdays continuously for over 20 years, BookaTrack is 15 years old and there were others back then that are no more. I did my first trackday at Silverstone in 1978 & yes, way back then they were a very rare event.

Circuits offering their own trackdays are a relatively new thing that's happened over the last few years; they saw how much demand there was via the bookings they took from regular trackday organisers & wanted a slice of that pie, frequently undercutting the very organisers who had painstakingly built the market up over many years.


I'm not wrong. The way track days are sold now is quite new. OK so there were companies offering and high priced 'high profile' venues but you know it's not the same as what is available now. Regardless of which examples people come up with, it's not like it was back then, track days were not available like now.

My point being the amount of people that do track days has changed to the way it was back then. And the reason for bringing it up is that you don't have to go to a track to own a Porsche or any fast car, which is what some people say.

The OP seems to want to track cars, so it makes sense to have the car that is track focused to use it there. But if he's worried about damage he should at least drive it on the road.
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NXI20
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This E92 isn't too modified & still makes a good fist of it with a 7:36 BTG Wink


Open Youtube Page

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NXI20
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isysman wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
isysman wrote:
T8 wrote:
isysman wrote:


Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days.



eh! Confused

I did track days in my Triumph Dolomite in 1982.


What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.


You're wrong. Both RMA & Goldtrack have run trackdays continuously for over 20 years, BookaTrack is 15 years old and there were others back then that are no more. I did my first trackday at Silverstone in 1978 & yes, way back then they were a very rare event.

Circuits offering their own trackdays are a relatively new thing that's happened over the last few years; they saw how much demand there was via the bookings they took from regular trackday organisers & wanted a slice of that pie, frequently undercutting the very organisers who had painstakingly built the market up over many years.


I'm not wrong. The way track days are sold now is quite new. OK so there were companies offering and high priced 'high profile' venues but you know it's not the same as what is available now. Regardless of which examples people come up with, it's not like it was back then, track days were not available like now.

My point being the amount of people that do track days has changed to the way it was back then. And the reason for bringing it up is that you don't have to go to a track to own a Porsche or any fast car, which is what some people say.

The OP seems to want to track cars, so it makes sense to have the car that is track focused to use it there. But if he's worried about damage he should at least drive it on the road.


I point you to your original statement:

"Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days."

This is incorrect & I have given you examples of trackday companies that pre-date the launch of the GT3.

By just focusing on circuit-run trackdays, you are discounting the work that all the TDOs who have been around & very actively promoting trackdays for many years have put in. I've already explained how the circuits only recently became involved in organising their own days, but it didn't come from nowhere. I can't understand why you think the trackday scene has fundamentally changed because some circuit owners have started to run their own days. That doesn't mean they previously didn't exist or were some rarified activity that required membership of a secret club to indulge in. Trackdays were available 20 years+ ago, you just had to be motivated to find them. Circuit-organised trackdays are still only a tiny proportion of the total number of trackdays run in this country.

I have seen nobody claim that you have to go to a track to own a fast car - care to point to where anyone has said that?
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
This E92 isn't too modified & still makes a good fist of it with a 7:36 BTG Wink


Open Youtube Page


Thats a cracking lap, you can really see how the dual clutch tranny is saving bags of time. Damp track too nicely highlighting the rceing line Very Happy
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 12565
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isysman wrote:
T8 wrote:
isysman wrote:


Tracking cars is only a recent thing. When the 996 GT3 came out there was no such thing as track days.



eh! Confused

I did track days in my Triumph Dolomite in 1982.


What's your point? All the race tracks that do this now never used to offer it then like they do now. Maybe there was some exceptions but generally it's a recent thing.


My point is that your statement above is wrong.

In 1982 I used to pay £6 for a 10 lap road car session at Brands Hatch and (although I never did them) I knew that several other circuits provided the same facility.

It was a new concept then ....... 33 years ago !




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Last edited by T8 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:36 am; edited 3 times in total
 
  
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bryce
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 24 May 2012
Posts: 315



PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no doubt that the 92 is a very capable car but it's just not as fun as my GT3 to drive. I've spent £15k on modifications and nowt on the Porsche. Different league altogether.

I see three options:

1. Continue spending on the M3.
2. Punt the M3 and track the GT3.
3. Punt the M3 and go more track focused or even a lighter e46.

I managed to get a lap with Moran (M3 GOT). He's doing 7.3x's and he's recently spent a lump on the car converting it to LHD and cage plus clubsport suspension. The car is unbelievable but more so the driver. He's also done away with the air con. The car is fun, but it's not nice to sit in. I'm not out to set times, I'm there to have fun and times will follow. I want to be reasonable comfortable in the process.

A final option, a bloody expensive option at that, would be to buy another GT3 997.1) and use that as a track car but really that's probably just bloody daft to save the paint on my Gen2.

ETA: I've only removed some interior on the 92 and with new seats it's weighing in at around 1540kg. My CSL is 1380kg and not sure on GT3.
 
  
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Senoj
Shanghai


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 4983
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without fuel and driver GT3 will be about 1400kg. As a car its far far closer, as standard, to being a very capable track weapon but you can still spend shed loads on tweaking one quite easily!
 
  
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NXI20
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
Without fuel and driver GT3 will be about 1400kg. As a car its far far closer, as standard, to being a very capable track weapon but you can still spend shed loads on tweaking one quite easily!


If you need any ideas Bryce, I have 2 pages of A4 listing the tweaks on mine. 1 line simply says "bigger engine" Floor
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Shaoxter
Hockenheim


Joined: 06 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for the YOLO concept but I wouldn't regularly track your GT3 at the Ring (other tracks, yes). Too many crazy people there (some of them in GT3s) and an oil leak from someone else's car can wipe you out.

Insurance is expensive/impossible and the value of these cars will stick in the back of your head. All things considered you'd probably have more fun in one of the well set up rental cars on semi slicks.
 
  
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ELA
Suzuka


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP it's a bit like not having sex with your girlfriend so that you don't ruin her for the next bloke Smile
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quattrosteph
Barcelona


Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELA wrote:
OP it's a bit like not having sex with your girlfriend so that you don't ruin her for the next bloke Smile

Awesome !!!
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quattrosteph
Barcelona


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The E90 M3 is a good car but it needs to be stripped out. Roll cage and the most important a good set of suspension and other bits to make it handle better.
Plenty at the Ring at the moment and they fly !
E46 was better. Better handling and lighter.
Take the GT3 to Spa or Silverstone GP any track with some good run off and enjoy it !! They are amazing.
Take the Bimmer anywhere !
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The Dragonmeister
Monza


Joined: 28 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you are an experienced track driver but how about doing a track day where there is an instructor who knows how to get the most out of the GT3. e.g. Derek Bell or other drivers of a similar calibre sometimes do track days and give advice/tuition. I realise it is expensive if something goes wrong so getting advice from someone who is experienced will pay dividends.

With your track day insurance you will find it does not cover everything so the best insurance is avoiding putting yourself in a situation.

No disrespect but if current Formula 1 drivers and Grand Prix riders get tuition then there is potential for us all.
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