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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: X51 'Style' Sumps Reply with quote

As I will be dropping the sump shortly for a poke around and to check the pickup/strainer I am considering swapping the sump/baffles for an X51 type setup.

Currently I run a half litre overfill for track work which my engine doesn't seem to mind (no excessive smoke etc.) and as it is a relatively early 3.4 and not X51 kitted it lacks the second scavenge pump so long left handers are a bit of a worry with regards oiling. Pressures always seem to be quite okay but my EOP sensor doesn't log quick enough to see if there is any aeration from running a higher level in the sump.

Also a consideration is the age and mileage on the standard baffles which are plastic and must be pretty brittle with rubber trap doors that probably don't seal as well as they once did.

As such I've been investigating what X51 style/copy sumps are around. I don't want to reduce the ground clearence much, if at all, as the car has to deal with speed bumps, ferries, loading ramps etc. on a pretty daily basis. Has anyone used this one sold by D-911?

http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod6303/Deep-Sump-Oil-Pan-Kit-Porsche-996--997---Boxster-986-987--Cayman/

It looks the part and the only thing which is a concern to me is the height of the entries to the baffle from the floor of the sump which seem a bit on the high side to me, however that's easily solved. I'd likely run 997 returns with it to help a little too.

Unfortunately whilst the scav pump, lines and bits for X51 oiling setup are still available the £3K odd to get it in there is more than is justifiable on an engine this old. Maybe when the time comes to build a new one!

All feedback appreciated!
 
  
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DaleD53
Monza


Joined: 06 Sep 2013
Posts: 246
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

95 views no response Dont know

Sorry mate - I am not that mechanically qualified to give a proper response - the only thing I can contribute is that having the X51 option on my car I believe it is something really worth seeking out Question

I hope that GT4 may catch sight of your post as he has provided some really good advice regarding the X51

Try using the search option X51 or perhaps GT4

Cheers and good luck thumbsup
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7907
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would rather spend my money on an Acusump if you are serious about track work. This kit from D911 only really gives you a little more capacity (with less ground clearance) and a little less sloshing, still not really enough IMO.
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3509
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^

Got to agree - if you really are set on a deep sump kit, FVD is the best value for money but in isolation it's probably not going to solve your concerns sufficiently.
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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
I would rather spend my money on an Acusump if you are serious about track work. This kit from D911 only really gives you a little more capacity (with less ground clearance) and a little less sloshing, still not really enough IMO.


Accusumps need a very specific installation to make any decent difference to oil delivery at the bearing surface, they are however very good at keeping the oil pressure gauge up a bit longer! They're also pretty heavy when you tot up all the bits required. The issue is they just do not have the capacity to sustain oil pressure for any considerable period of time and as the cylinder empties the pressure on the piston in the accusump provided by the compressed air at one end reduces accordingly which in turn delivers less oil under less pressure into the engine oil circuit. The one way valve required in the filter outlet line also introduces a catastrophic failure point into the oil system. We tried accusumps for various things a few years back (BTCC, World Series Trophy (which had them as standard) ) and they were always more trouble than they were worth and ended up being a mass of dash 16 oil lines and weight. If the issue is very slight then they can resolve it but for anything major they'll just stave off the failure a few more seconds.

The car probably has around 20K track miles on it but it has always run on road tyres and I'd like to try something a little stickier on it. I'm probably just looking for an excuse to bolt a shiny part on but as I do want to have a look in the sump it seemed a shame not to bolt something on at the same time. It's really the baffles/trapdoors I'm interested in as the D911 ones just don't look low enough to the floor of sump for my liking. A genuine X51 baffle set would be lovely but they seem to be hens teeth!

With regards oil sloshing around that's actually one of the worst things you can have going on as if it gets on anything spinning it aereates the oil and in a wet sump setup generally you have no deaereation solution in place. This in turn really hurts the oil film quality on the bearing/s as the oil has is full of air. On a really good data system with a good pressure transducer in the main oil galley you can see this on the data if you're logging quick enough (1000hz) as a very noisy oil pressure trace rather than a nice consistently smooth line.

If anyone has a set of original X51 baffles/trapdoors they'd like to sell me I'd be ever so grateful Smile
 
  
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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaleD53 wrote:
95 views no response Dont know

Sorry mate - I am not that mechanically qualified to give a proper response - the only thing I can contribute is that having the X51 option on my car I believe it is something really worth seeking out Question

I hope that GT4 may catch sight of your post as he has provided some really good advice regarding the X51

Try using the search option X51 or perhaps GT4

Cheers and good luck thumbsup


I agree with you absolutely that it's something worth seeking out. It's also something very hard to retrofit to a 3.4 these days as I don't believe that there are any more complete kits in stock anywhere. I drove an X51 3.4 some years back and the high RPM performance compared to my cooking 3.4 was worlds apart. It charged straight into the rev limiter with some ferocity where as mine is all done and just making noise at 6900RPM!

I really would love to be able to justify the second scav pump and associated bits but for this engine it just seems like spending for spendings sake. It's 200K+ miles old and hasn't gone pop yet LOL

I'll have a search and see if I can find some different part numbers to try Smile
 
  
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pj_sibley
Montreal


Joined: 12 Nov 2012
Posts: 540
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried your local OPC for the X51 oil sump? Reason I ask is because I bought the X51 sump for my 996.2 3.6 directly from my OPC for sub-£200. It was very straightforward to fit and the X51 item clearly had larger baffles and better 'slosh' protection than the standard item when I looked at them side by side.

Don't know if the part now for the sump are the same for 3.4 and 3.6 but I can look at the sales invoice for the part no. if you like
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7907
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

poppopbangbang wrote:
With regards oil sloshing around that's actually one of the worst things you can have going on as if it gets on anything spinning it aereates the oil and in a wet sump setup generally you have no deaereation solution in place.


This is what I was getting at, you are only getting minimal gains to stop the sloshing with the D911 kit, if only there were motorsport parts available for the M96!
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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pj_sibley wrote:
Have you tried your local OPC for the X51 oil sump? Reason I ask is because I bought the X51 sump for my 996.2 3.6 directly from my OPC for sub-£200. It was very straightforward to fit and the X51 item clearly had larger baffles and better 'slosh' protection than the standard item when I looked at them side by side.

Don't know if the part now for the sump are the same for 3.4 and 3.6 but I can look at the sales invoice for the part no. if you like


I have but was told that the 3.4 and 3.6 X51 baffles are different and 3.4 spec is NLA. How true this is I don't know as it could just be they are only listed for 3.6 now but it's an identical part. As all the aftermarket ones appear to fit everything it can't be that different!

If you wouldn't mind digging the PN out I'd owe you a virtual beer! Smile
 
  
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Stuart
General
General


Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 5095
Location: Waterworld

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fitted the X51 sump pan on my old C2, the baffles are more restrictive therefore reducing surge.



parts:

000 043 204 35 Gasket Compound
996 107 243 40 Power Pack X51 Oil Pan


see GT4's post down the page for more detail on how surge is reduced:
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sump+pan&start=40
 
  
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pj_sibley
Montreal


Joined: 12 Nov 2012
Posts: 540
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth checking the autoatlanta parts diagrams to see if 3.4 and 3.6 oil pans are actually the same or not.

The one I ordered (same as photo above) was 996.107.243.41 - Oil Pan. Came in at £111.90 +VAT
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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
poppopbangbang wrote:
With regards oil sloshing around that's actually one of the worst things you can have going on as if it gets on anything spinning it aereates the oil and in a wet sump setup generally you have no deaereation solution in place.


This is what I was getting at, you are only getting minimal gains to stop the sloshing with the D911 kit, if only there were motorsport parts available for the M96!


If you weren't looking to save on overall engine height it's about the easiest engine in the world to dry sump! There is even enough room in the standard sump to run a two stage scav internally with the drive out the back of the upper section of the sump/block fed off a second pulley on the crank pulley to get the right ratio then the standard oil pump for the pressure stage with the feed from the tank via a modified oil pickup to give a dash 16 on the back of the sump. Oil tank can go right at the back of the bay or boxed in within the passenger compartment.... not that I've looked at this or anything Wink

It's just terribly hard to justify the cost on something that's worth about 50p these days and has survived this far on original bits!
 
  
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello poppopbangbang,

Which option did you go for in the end?

I was looking at the D911 kit and found this thread. The 'X51 oil pan' mentioned by Stuart above looks similar also.

I'd like to protect the engine without losing too much ground clearance, as mine is a road car first track car second.

Not planning to use any sticky tyres (probably at most Michelin Super Sport, but most likely PS2).

Thank you.
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1999 Integra DC2
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30194
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but I guess it might be academic now?

Otherwise, the X51 pan has no ground clearance issues (it's externa profile is identical), it is just the internal battle design and surge "shuttering" that differs.

As you say, the other X51 lubrication based upgrade is the additional scavenger pump upgrade and return lines, which of course are independent of the sump plate.

Pretty much all the info is in this linky to the X51 MotorSport thread.
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3509
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Priced one up 2 weeks ago and it was £143 plus VAT.
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
Priced one up 2 weeks ago and it was £143 plus VAT.


Was it for the one listed by Stuart (996 107 243 40)?

Thanks.
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Jk
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 130
Location: Devon

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there real causes for concern tracking a 996 with the standard sump?
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3509
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y2K wrote:
Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
Priced one up 2 weeks ago and it was £143 plus VAT.


Was it for the one listed by Stuart (996 107 243 40)?

Thanks.


It was.

As regards the tracking Q - if you are at all concerned it's not a lot of money for peace of mind.
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Y2K
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Posts: 371
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^ Thank you. Great price; I'll get it fitted when the car is due for a service in June.
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GT4
Nordschleife
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Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jk wrote:
Are there real causes for concern tracking a 996 with the standard sump?


No more than a "normal" car, and the X51 is but a half way house.

The true track-stars run dry sumps (whether Mezger or 991 MA1)
 
  
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