Paintwork opinions

ch3tman · 26 Mar 2015

Looking for some advice from those who understand the art of paintwork!

My car recently underwent some work at the bodyshop; as part of this it was decided it was a good time to freshen up the front end (it was on the to do list anyway) by painting both front wings, front PU, front scuttle and bonnet.

Car was collected in the evening but within a day or so of taking the car back a few issues were noticed; broken motor in wing mirror, creases in newly applied stonefoil, etc. The biggest issue was a heavy orange-peel effect on the newly painted panels (more than the non-painted panels), bonnet especially. The body shop reviewed the car and accepted it should never have been released to me in that condition and took it back in for correction via 'flattening" to lessen the orange peel. Pleasing to hear, all good, no issues.

I've had the car back for about 4 days and have now noticed the following:

The fine scratches above - present across the whole bonnet, both wings, and some scuttle areas - appear to be in many directions and quite widespread.

They look different to additional bonnet marks, below, which can be seen in natural light, and look even more worrying (deep?):

More photos from various angles viewable here: http://imgur.com/a/LM9I3

None of the scratches or marks can be felt by hand, everything still feels super smooth but clearly defects are present.

The body shop have, as ever, been very accommodating and appear to be standing by the 'life time warranty' which was offered prior to work commencing. The proprietor is Porsche trained - incidentally a really genuine & nice guy - and informs me the photos above are 'just flatting marks which weren't fully removed by the machine polish and filled with wax", that it can all be sorted whilst I wait 30-60min.

I have little knowledge about painting and subsequent correction - hence am becoming worried about the situation as well as losing quality from new paint... and of course my third trip back! The current condition and situation is not quite what I expected after a front end refresh....:?:

Advice & thoughts invited.

Zingari · 26 Mar 2015

The surface scratches to the lacquer shouldn't be a problem to sort out but the last two pics suggest the paint beneath the lacquer is at fault and hasn't been correctly applied :dont know:

DJones · 26 Mar 2015

I learnt the art of painting many years ago through having some rubbish examples given back to me.

I am a cabinet maker by trade so quite a perfectionist unfortunately...

Paint is much more forgiving than most think and generally very easy to work with, the sanding scratches will be easily removed with the appropriate mop and compound. Wax can make you lazy as a painter as it does indeed fill the sanding scratches to make you think all is well. Sadly a couple of days later the sanding scratches will show.

I use IPA, alcohol to remove the wax and compound residue which will show if you have properly removed the sanding scratches prior to applying wax.

Yours looks like someone has rushed it, not gone down the grades in compound and polishing heads to remove all the "wet flat'ing" marks and used wax to temporarily make it look like a show car.

The last pictures look like your primer coats have sunk, not properly dry prior to adding the top coats, or tack rag residue on the substrate. Did you have a dent that needed filling out of interest, I ask as you somtimes get "mapping" which is when the top coats attack the edges of the filler and lift it slightly showing marks in your paint.

To stop this you need to apply an isolater coat.

If it's just sunk and the clear coat is deep enough you can generally "wet flat" it out. 2500 grit paper, small block (never just fingers) soapy water and sand lightly in one direction (not circles) the first light sand will really show it up as the low bits will stay shinny and the high areas go dull... You sand lightly until all dull, then compound it and it will be gone.

If it's mapping it will have effected the way the metalic will have been laid down (it's called flip flop) and generally needs doing again.

Hope it helps, in truth it all looks easy to fix....

Darren.

Outliar · 26 Mar 2015

Others above seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the details of the work required. I would concur the light scuffing is easily removed, I've done this myself on my motorcycle (an old Ducati 996) which I restored back to a nice deep shine and got rid of scratches.

I just wanted to comment on the other paint defects, and reiterate the importance of getting this re-done properly. I bought my 993 C4 a year ago, and some paint issues surfaced late last year. Digging into the service history, the car was painted in 2012, bonnet, front bumper, front wings, and doors - presumably to cover stone chips etc. Only two years later, and I had cracking along two sides of the front bonnet, lifting paint on the bonnet near one of the washer jets, flaking paint on one of the door edges. The root cause was that poor paint job in 2012, so in only 2 years time the poor work was causing problems.

Fast forward, and I decided to go to an OPC bodyshop this time. I inspected the work last week, and found a small area of imperfection on the bumper (looks like a ripple in one corner of the bumper) - and so they are now respraying the whole bumper again, a bumper off job, with no questions asked. Your bodyshop should take the same view, the job needs to be re-done properly or it will bite you in the not too distant future.

Good luck.

ch3tman · 26 Mar 2015

Zingari - my fear was also that the latter pics demonstrated 'deeper' issues...

Outliar - good points. Although it seems it will be quite difficult to tell *now* how well the paint will hold up in 2 years time. The previous owner of your car will (hopefully!) have been pleased with the work at the time it was completed...

DJones - thanks for the comprehensive post, much appreciated. In response to your question, there was no damage whatsoever to the bonnet, the front PU was heavily stone chipped and needed doing, hence the bonnet and wings were done too. The 'deeper looking' marks can be seen as a 'band' across almost the majority of the width of the bonnet in, in this 'criss-cross' like pattern.

Will all of this corrective work required (sanding, compound, MOP, etc.) weaken and thin the paint? Or is it something that would've been carried out already, and has perhaps been rushed?

Finally, I am informed a level of orange peel is left to give that factory look. Expected?

gunners08 · 26 Mar 2015

Doesn't matter how well the paint job was. If the preparation was crap it will reflect on the end product.

1) If its water based paint, the water base hasn't cured and they have lacquered on top.

2) Not prepared properly. Scratches in prep work not rubbed out enough and showing up under lacquer.

I have a 993 in my garage at the moment that will be having a full respray
very soon I will post pictures when started.

DJones · 26 Mar 2015

No problem, if it's not had damage it's probably "tack rag" residue, or some other form of contamination that was on the panel at the time.

You seriously have to be beyond medically clean with this stuff, perticulary 2k polyurethanes, I've had to bleach my entire paint booth just for using WD40 in it as I couldn't get rid of the fish eye, (dots of silicone contamination) and the paint swells around it giving you a lovely wood chip finish..

Flat'ing is fine so long as the film thickness is there. 2k clear coat is an activated paint, think of it like expoxy resin, no mater how smooth you spread it, it will always have an edge if you don't paint an entire panel edge to edge.

So you can't go through it and do a spot repair, cheap shops do and use a blending thinner to smooth out the edge but ultraviolet light will attack it and make the edges lift over time, we've all seen those cars with clear coat lifting..

What I'm trying to say is you can't go through it and do a spot repair.

Some do say they match the original orange peel which is a fair point. The flat'ing and polishing won't harm it. And I would think from you pictures it's all easily fixed without the need for more paint.

Hope it helps

Darren.

gunners08 · 26 Mar 2015

DJones said:
No problem, if it's not had damage it's probably "tack rag" residue, or some other form of contamination that was on the panel at the time.

You seriously have to be beyond medically clean with this stuff, perticulary 2k polyurethanes, I've had to bleach my entire paint booth just for using WD40 in it as I couldn't get rid of the fish eye, (dots of silicone contamination) and the paint swells around it giving you a lovely wood chip finish..

Flat'ing is fine so long as the film thickness is there. 2k clear coat is an activated paint, think of it like expoxy resin, no mater how smooth you spread it, it will always have an edge if you don't paint an entire panel edge to edge.

So you can't go through it and do a spot repair, cheap shops do and use a blending thinner to smooth out the edge but ultraviolet light will attack it and make the edges lift over time, we've all seen those cars with clear coat lifting..

What I'm trying to say is you can't go through it and do a spot repair.

Some do say they match the original orange peel which is a fair point. The flat'ing and polishing won't harm it. And I would think from you pictures it's all easily fixed without the need for more paint.

Hope it helps

Darren.

To be honest if its underneath the lacquer I would love to know how it can be sorted without needing re painting. Pictures look like its underneath the lacquer. :?:

DJones · 26 Mar 2015

It doesn't to me and I've had the same effect from a contaminated tack rag I.e. Not effecting the base just effecting the shine on the clear which can and has been sorted without further paint.

ch3tman · 26 Mar 2015

Thanks for the further posts :thumbs:.
The car goes back in April for a week and they're confident all issues are on the surface can be can be resolved via a detail. Fingers crossed, third time lucky :-|.

NottsRS · 5 Dec 2016

Some very informative posts above :thumb:

Did the issues get sorted?

ch3tman · 5 Dec 2016

Following a decent amount of persuading, lots of chasing and more missed deadlines... finally, yes, thank you (some more update to date pics here).

The results clearly could've been better but reached a level I could accept and so decided to put a stop to wasting my time with the proprietor, which was hard work. My car then went for a service and the indy pointed out the wipers were incorrectly fitted and the bumper was still mis-aligned (the bonnet was only refitted properly once I'd pointed out the gaps). The 'fixed' door-check-strap began failing within a matter of months.

The "lifetime guarantee" failed at the first hurdle as did the "we treat every car as if it was our own" mantra - both provided in writing during the quoting process.

The experience put me off dealing with bodyshops full stop!

MattyR · 5 Dec 2016

As a matter of interest what sort of state was the bodywork in the first place i.e. prior to the respray? Was it, in hindsight, something you could have lived with given the rigmarole of the process? I only ask as I am looking at a similar prospect, but I could certainly live with my current paintwork as the car is over 150k, but all is very presentable.

ch3tman · 6 Dec 2016

MattyR said:
As a matter of interest what sort of state was the bodywork in the first place i.e. prior to the respray? Was it, in hindsight, something you could have lived with given the rigmarole of the process?

Most definitely! Bodywork before was... well you can see for yourself on pages 1 and 2 here. Not concours, but way above average for your typical 75k mile car.

The original scope was to tend to scratches and damage on the OS wing/door after someone had swiped the car whilst it was parked. From when I bought the car, I knew I'd have to have the bumper painted at some point due to stone chips, so then added that to the list. The bodyshop then convinced me it's worth going for the bonnet, scuttle and NS wing..., i.e. a full front end re-fresh :what:. In hindsight I definitely should've just kept it limited to the original 'must haves' - but that's more a reflection of my 'customer experience' more than anything.

MattyR · 6 Dec 2016

That's food for thought, thanks. Glad all was kind of sorted in the end. What a palaver!

Paintwork opinions

ch3tman

Suzuka

Zingari

Brands Hatch

DJones

Hockenheim

Outliar

Spa-Francorchamps

ch3tman

Suzuka

gunners08

Nurburgring

DJones

Hockenheim

gunners08

Nurburgring

DJones

Hockenheim

ch3tman

Suzuka

NottsRS

Barcelona

ch3tman

Suzuka

MattyR

Imola

ch3tman

Suzuka

MattyR

Imola

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