A question about Performance Tyres? Ask the Michelin Expert!

Porsche News · 31 Mar 2014

Track Day question.

Running a few degrees of camber has clear handling benefits on track in the corners but what are the actual impact on the tyre and are modern tyres designed to cope with 'some' camber ?

Michelin Tyres · 31 Mar 2014

Porsche News said:
Track Day question.

Running a few degrees of camber has clear handling benefits on track in the corners but what are the actual impact on the tyre and are modern tyres designed to cope with 'some' camber ?

Yep, the obvious benefit with some static camber is under lateral cornering, the tyre takes a flat contact patch. GT class Porsche 911's run up to -4 deg rear camber.

So, what about road tyres?

well suffice to the tyre carrying sufficient pressure to support the tyre carcass, then camber isn't a quick tyre killer. But the more camber you run, the more fatigue you put into the carcass and the shoulder of the tyre. In motorsport, you would run different cambers side to side and axle to axle, and it would vary track to track, for example with the high loads at Church and in general at Thruxton, you wound the camber right back. Equally running high cambers, you want to stay off the kerbs as the impact on and off the kerbs is brutal

On the road however, running a lot of static camber tends to wear the inside of the tyre out. It is fairly common to see rear tyres off a 911 with inner shoulder wear.

So no track work, I'd say wind the camber as close to zero as the tolerances allow. The wear pattern is the evidence as to how the tyre hits the road. More and more manufacturers are applying higher rear camber and toe, as it calms the car rear end down during lane change manoeuvres, (think elk test), but it has killed rear tyre life..

PORKY993 · 31 Mar 2014

Recommendation for 993

Hi

I have a 993 Carerra 2 running 18 inch wheels. I have previously fitted Michelin PS2 N rated to the car. The car is mainly used for fast road use, with some occasional track time. What tyre would you recommend I fit as replacements (the current tyres are getting old)? I had previously thought of MPSS but from the earlier post it seems like they are not available?

Thx

tim993 · 1 Apr 2014

My question is this:

Can you shed any light on how tyres are evolved for our older cars?

In particular i wondered to what extent the new tyres actually get tested on these older cars as part of their certification.

For example, i drive a 1995 993 turbo which uses quite an unusual rear tyre size 285 / 30 R18 ZR N3. This is probably not shared with any of the current range, and yet is surely an advancement of whatever tyre Michelin originally supplied for this model.

Thanks in advance :thumb:

tim

Michelin Tyres · 2 Apr 2014

Re: Recommendation for 993

PORKY993 said:
Hi

I have a 993 Carerra 2 running 18 inch wheels. I have previously fitted Michelin PS2 N rated to the car. The car is mainly used for fast road use, with some occasional track time. What tyre would you recommend I fit as replacements (the current tyres are getting old)? I had previously thought of MPSS but from the earlier post it seems like they are not available?

Thx

On "N" rated tyres it's PS2's only, we have no plans at present to back homologate the PSS (pilot Super Sport).
225/40-18 and 265/35-18 PSS are made, but sadly Michelin Europe doesn't currently import the PSS rear from America, where it is made and sold.

On the 225/40-18 Front and both rears 265/35-18 and 285/30-18 we launch the Pilot Sport Cup 2, non "N" rated suitable for a 996, but it will be the start of 2015 before these sizes come to market. Therefore a bit away. We can't launch everything at once, as tyre production is always very tight and scheduled, it comes in phases..

These offer the best level of Track performance while still being great road tyres. The PS2's work well on track, but obviously as they come from the early 2000's things have evolved (bit like the cars i suppose) so it's all relative

Jamie

Michelin Tyres · 2 Apr 2014

tim993 said:
My question is this:

Can you shed any light on how tyres are evolved for our older cars?

In particular i wondered to what extent the new tyres actually get tested on these older cars as part of their certification.

For example, i drive a 1995 993 turbo which uses quite an unusual rear tyre size 285 / 30 R18 ZR N3. This is probably not shared with any of the current range, and yet is surely an advancement of whatever tyre Michelin originally supplied for this model.

Thanks in advance :thumb:

tim

It's a trade off..

With new ranges, we obviously target what our OE manufacturers request, e.g. the vehicle manufacturers, and also what is the requirement in the replacement market.

Hence with newer ranges, we will go as the market trends tend to go. Tyre manufacturers have no real hidden agenda, we make the sizes we are asked for by manufacturers.

Hence as a niche car size gets older, the number of cars decreases, and (in general.. doesn't really apply as much with Porsche) people tend to spend less on maintenance and hence buy cheaper tyres.

So whilst we do test tyres on the cars they fit, it's more than likely it's just to asses that they work on the vehicle without a significant level of additional tuning. We can't and don't test every tyre/car combination, especially on more standard sizes, as quite simply it would take 3-5 years, but with niche and ultra high performance stuff we can.

The big step coming early next year is the Cup2 for this car, not "N" rated, but 996's will tend to be out of warranty by a few years..

wasz · 2 Apr 2014

Hi,

If you were a 'normal' (road/commute/weekend blast) 911 owner (and didn't work for Michelin so get your tyres free) would you choose to pay the premium for N rated tyres?

MJA911 · 2 Apr 2014

Are you talking about a price premium for N rated versions of the same tyres? Do you have examples? I've had a quick look on Event Tyres and there's very little premium, in fact sometimes N rated versions are cheaper :dont know:

Michelin Tyres · 2 Apr 2014

wasz said:
Hi,

If you were a 'normal' (road/commute/weekend blast) 911 owner (and didn't work for Michelin so get your tyres free) would you choose to pay the premium for N rated tyres?

I know from my own experience over the years the vast differences between tyre brands. Granted, the difference between the top brands is not so great, but if you compare a Michelin/Continental/Pirelli vs. a mid range/budget tyre, the differences are huge. Yes, some of the them make good tyres, but on a premium car like a Porsche, that's been developed and tuned around the Premium brands, that would be the way to go.

The all round performance of something (such as Michelin's) will give you performance in all areas, from grip, braking, wear, steering, comfort, rolling resistance etc. With lower brand tyres you often get one or two areas but not the all round performance. Its a bit like buying a Porsche..

So, the other thing I would say is cost of ownership. Whilst a Michelin or other Premium tyre might not be the cheapest, if it last longer and performs better, then pound for pound it's the best choice.

On "N" rating, then you are buying tyres tuned for the car. It isn't marketing BS, we actually spend a lot of time and effort honing the tyres.
Yes, the warranty and other issues are covered elsewhere, but the "N" rating means you don't take any risks, e.g. optimised tyres, that will definitely work and have more potential.

On our range, it depends upon the sizes and age of the car.

Pilot Sport 2, go back to the 2004/5 period and are still a good tyre, and come in many "N" flavours
Pilot Super Sport, is the best performance road tyre we have ever made, but this year, is still waiting for "N" rating in most 911 sizes.
PS Cup2 is track based, but also works on the road, great tyres (and come in "N" flavours, but if your car doesn't go to the track or get driven really hard, probably not the best tyre..

So, if you aren't too worried about "N" ratings, the PSS is the choice I'd make.

Mac996t · 3 Apr 2014

Hi Jamie

I have recently replaced my front tyres with N3 ps2's, the old ones were N2's as are the rears. Is there much difference between versions and are you nullifying the possible benefit of having manufacturer tested tyres by having different numbers.

Another question is I drive my cars fairly hard and always destroy the outer edges of the front tyres, any tips on reducing this, often I have to replace tyres that still have a reasonable amount of tread over the inner three quarters. My Impreza is worse than my Porsche but at least I can spread the wear by swopping front to rear. I only got around 7K miles out of the last set of ps2's on the front of my Porsche, got a bit more out of the rear

Thanks Mac

Michelin Tyres · 3 Apr 2014

Mac996t said:
Hi Jamie

I have recently replaced my front tyres with N3 ps2's, the old ones were N2's as are the rears. Is there much difference between versions and are you nullifying the possible benefit of having manufacturer tested tyres by having different numbers.

Another question is I drive my cars fairly hard and always destroy the outer edges of the front tyres, any tips on reducing this, often I have to replace tyres that still have a reasonable amount of tread over the inner three quarters. My Impreza is worse than my Porsche but at least I can spread the wear by swopping front to rear. I only got around 7K miles out of the last set of ps2's on the front of my Porsche, got a bit more out of the rear

Thanks Mac

Mac, can you let me know the car and the sizes so i can just confirm whats what.., cheers
Jamie

pzero · 3 Apr 2014

Jamie,

Simple question, what would be the most appropriate tyre for general road use for 997.2 GT3?

Michelin Tyres · 3 Apr 2014

pzero said:
Jamie,

Simple question, what would be the most appropriate tyre for general road use for 997.2 GT3?

Nice name :lol:

I'm assuming you are on 235/35-19 Fronts and 305/30-19 Rears

If the old OE would have been Cup/Cup+ which were a bit more "hardcore" e.g. track based only. Wet performance would have been a little bit more of the compromise.

As we don't offer the Pilot Super Sport at the moment with an "N" rating, then that may limit using them. We know they work on 911's and quite a few people are using them, but not with the "N" rating.

The new Cup2, shown on the forum, will give you better and more consistent track performance, better wear (50% improvement over the Cup+) and much better wet performance. So all in all, that would be the way I would go, especially if you drive on track or fast road..

PS Cup2 is the OE fit on the new 991 GT3

Jamie

pzero · 3 Apr 2014

Thanks Jamie,

Yes, I'm currently on 235/35-19 Fronts and 305/30-19 Rears.

Tinker · 3 Apr 2014

Tyre pressures and ambient temperature

How does Boyle's Law relate to tyre pressures and ambient temperatures, please?

At 20C, for road use, my Michelins are at 36lbs & 44lbs.

What should the pressures be at 10C, 15C, 25C, 30C and, rarely, 35C?

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