Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: My blue C2 964 rebuild thread
I've bought a baltic blue 964 nicely run in with 159,000 miles.
It has just been serviced by NiceExcellence and gone in to have a noisy tappet sorted and oil leaks sorted.
The car is oozing oil from every hole.
I have taken it to several indys for opinions and quotes, and to see where I should get it fixed.
My local indy is a chap called Martin Brown next to Shirleys Garage in Meriden, who I called on first. The problem is, being a one man band, it will take longer.
I also tried RSR Autotech in Bromsgrove on recommendation by Clinchy, and finally settled on Zentrum in Nottingham, recommended Big 'Un, and there is a nice thread on here of his rebuild. Cunno and Mistercorn also confirmed they were decent, and my car was booked in for 30 July, scheduled for 2 weeks.
On an early morning breakfast run on Sunday morning we passed a 4x4 driver who recognised the car, and had been negotiating to buy it.
He said that there was one chap who is the undisputed king of building 964s, a bloke called Martin, in Meriden!
So after a further chat with Martin I have decided it is he who will be doing the job. There will be a few mods and updates on the way too, to make it a bit more special.
It will take longer than Zentrum, (looking at a month) and possibly cost more, but as he is my local indy and has done work for me before, that's the choice I have made.
As a side-note, whilst on the breakfast run with Sausage and Adam2712, my wife commented that you dont get the "kick in the back" with the 964 that you do with the 996. Lets just wait and see!
I will be posting updates and pics as we go. _________________
Last edited by PeterS on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Roro Long Beach
Joined: 01 Oct 2010 Posts: 6433 Location: Berkshire
I haven't posted on this as my indie is busy and have been waiting for work to commence.
However last week it was engine out, and we first found the true state of things.
It has been well and truly bodged on the past.
However upon stripping the news is even worse.
3 barrel studs were broken, the rocker shaft bolt had been repaired by being welded(!) a far greater job then just replacing the bolt.
The cam/ rocker carrier was loose and it has damaged the camshaft (or housing, the phone call became a blur!)
The crank bearings are on their last fragments plus a load of other stuff.
I am visiting it in intensive care tomorrow, when I will know more. _________________
Roro Long Beach
Joined: 01 Oct 2010 Posts: 6433 Location: Berkshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject:
... And yet you managed to do Le Mans Classic in this car I think? Lucky nothing went wrong on that trip
Sorry to hear so much work is required - at least once it's sorted you'll have yourself one blinder of a motor! _________________ 2007 997.1 GT3
2017 F87 M2
PeterS Fuji
Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 9293 Location: Solihull
yes, 1000 miles, a bit of smoke out the back (well, a big bit!, but kept topping it up) and drove it round a bit afterwards too, a bit of daily use, plus driving it round various places for opinions.
It had a noise that sounded like a noisy tappet, but that was supposed to have been sorted before I bought it.
No wonder adjusting the tappet didn't sort it. I will know more when I see it tomorrow.
Loads of other brackets / bolts / bits bodged too, so this is just a continuation on a theme.
It will be sorted though. _________________
Porsche964FP Donuts For Windows
Joined: 21 Jan 2011 Posts: 92
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject:
PeterS wrote:
I haven't posted on this as my indie is busy and have been waiting for work to commence.
However last week it was engine out, and we first found the true state of things.
It has been well and truly bodged on the past.
However upon stripping the news is even worse.
3 barrel studs were broken, the rocker shaft bolt had been repaired by being welded(!) a far greater job then just replacing the bolt.
The cam/ rocker carrier was loose and it has damaged the camshaft (or housing, the phone call became a blur!)
The crank bearings are on their last fragments plus a load of other stuff.
I am visiting it in intensive care tomorrow, when I will know more.
Wow that is quite a bit of damage to rectify - I hope you got the car for cheap... Did you do a PPI?
So what are you thinking - standard full rebuild with cup cams (since your cam is damaged) and a remap?
What condition are the barrels, pistons and con rods? Hopefully no damage to the crank shaft otherwise you're really into serious ££££!
ras62 Hockenheim
Joined: 20 Jan 2012 Posts: 660 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject:
Its not the end of the world as you would have replaced the head studs anyway and a good replacement cam carrier will be fairly cheap I would think. So long as the Piston/Cylinders and the crank are serviceable then it will be a straight rebuild with the few extra's eluded to earlier. It will certainly give the wife a shove in the back when its done!
PeterS Fuji
Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 9293 Location: Solihull
There is slight scoring, he is saying just rings is borderline but new pistons may be required.
I. Will look for myself tomorrow.
In reality I know it's going to be new pistons, but then you always think..... Hey 3.8?
I'll know more in a day or so.
All those going to the Midlands Meet will get the news hot off the press as I'm going straight there afterwards. _________________
Gazc2 Watkins Glen
Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 2141 Location: Perthshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject:
You could always stick a 993 lump in it
clinchy993 Long Beach
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 6762
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject:
gary.donald wrote:
You could always stick a 993 lump in it
The way to go
ras62 Hockenheim
Joined: 20 Jan 2012 Posts: 660 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject:
Why a 993 engine As for 3.8 it is a whole lot of cash for little benefit.
Porsche964FP Donuts For Windows
Joined: 21 Jan 2011 Posts: 92
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject:
ras62 wrote:
Why a 993 engine ? As for 3.8 it is a whole lot of cash for little benefit.
993 engine - cheaper than a rebuild. Has been done to great effect. Although it's another gamble on another engine. The car will no longer have matching numbers.
3.8 - torque values are higher. Which depending on preference can be preferable. If the OP needs new barrels and pistons the price jump between 3.6 and 3.8 is worth considering.
I personally would not consider 're-skimming' cams - I would replace. If the OP sticks with the intake manifold he has I would consider cup cams and a remap.
Possibly upgrade (if early 964) to the plastic manifold and consider a HotFilm/ MAF conversion.
Besides all these possible decisions are only worth considering once the full diagnosis is complete and the budget is considered...
Last edited by Porsche964FP on Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
Waz Estoril
Joined: 14 May 2011 Posts: 3505 Location: Sutton coldfield
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject:
gary.donald wrote:
You could always stick a 993 lump in it
And then bolt a turbo on it before you stick back in _________________ May the Forsche be with you
2004 3.6 996 C4S cab in The fast black
Cayenne turbo S in matching black 600bhp
ras62 Hockenheim
Joined: 20 Jan 2012 Posts: 660 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject:
Porsche964FP wrote:
ras62 wrote:
Why a 993 engine ? As for 3.8 it is a whole lot of cash for little benefit.
993 engine - cheaper than a rebuild. Has been done to great effect. Although it's another gamble on another engine. The car will no longer have matching numbers.
3.8 - torque values are higher. Which depending on preference can be preferable. If the OP needs new barrels and pistons the price jump between 3.6 and 3.8 is worth considering.
I personally would not consider 're-skimming' cams - I would replace. If the OP sticks with the intake manifold he has I would consider cup cams and a remap.
Possibly upgrade (if early 964) to the plastic manifold and consider a HotFilm/ MAF conversion.
Besides all these possible decisions are only worth considering once the full diagnosis is complete and the budget is considered...
I dont see any sense in putting another old engine in, who knows what condition it is in and loose originality? I dont understand the great effect comment, it is virtually the same engine, what am I missing?
If barrels are shot then 3.8 could be considered but I dont think you would notice any difference over a well sorted 3.6 The urban myth seems alive and well.
sparky1pq Spa-Francorchamps
Joined: 16 Jul 2011 Posts: 291 Location: North West
Not good news but at least you know where you stand and you know it will be sorted.
Hope your wife is understanding! _________________ 993 C4 - Polar Silver
BMW 5 Series - Unwashed
Porsche964FP Donuts For Windows
Joined: 21 Jan 2011 Posts: 92
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject:
ras62 wrote:
I dont see any sense in putting another old engine in, who knows what condition it is in and loose originality?
993 Engine - Absolutely, as aforementioned - it can be a gamble. However if one does find one from a reputable specialist, where all the history etc is known - it may (and has for some) be viable.
As for the loss of originality - very true.
However it's a cheaper alternative for those with a tighter budget. Thus the option is worth considering.
ras62 wrote:
I dont understand the great effect comment, it is virtually the same engine, what am I missing?
The 993 engine is a more refined and reliable engine. The Varioram intake system is very effective. 993 engines also don't need valve adjustments as they have hydraulic lifters that self adjust.
ras62 wrote:
If barrels are shot then 3.8 could be considered but I dont think you would notice any difference over a well sorted 3.6 The urban myth seems alive and well.
3.8 - With all due respect, calling the difference between 3.6 and 3.8 a myth is unfounded. There are several very reputable sources that prove otherwise - documented. As said, there are torque increases to be had, that are noticeable - which may be preferable
ras62 Hockenheim
Joined: 20 Jan 2012 Posts: 660 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject:
Frank, the 993 is a fine engine but a better engine? Chase power and tell me hydraulic cams are a great idea. Much better to keep the original motor for so many reasons in a 964.
Ahh the 3.8. Well let me put it this way, you are correct, you should see more torque. However if you believe the extra 150cc of cubic capacity will make a noticeable difference over and above the 3600cc already there then I think you will be sorely disappointed. It's not rocket science when you look at the numbers. My 3.6 sits quite comfortably against a 3.8L. Rob
Porsche964FP Donuts For Windows
Joined: 21 Jan 2011 Posts: 92
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject:
ras62 wrote:
Frank, the 993 is a fine engine but a better engine? Chase power and tell me hydraulic cams are a great idea. Much better to keep the original motor for so many reasons in a 964.
Never said the 993 engine was 'better' - simply that there are logical reasons why one would decide on a 993 engine. Mainly cost.
The reason I stated the hydraulic lifters was to address your statement that the engines were 'virtually the same'. If we're talking power - that's a different point.
I agree keeping a 964 engine would in my mind be preferable. But again I was stating a 993 engine as a cost effective option - should budgets be tight.
ras62 wrote:
However if you believe the extra 150cc of cubic capacity will make a noticeable difference over and above the 3600cc already there then I think you will be sorely disappointed. It's not rocket science when you look at the numbers.
Thank you for pointing out that it's not rocket science - true it isn't.
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... And yet you managed to do Le Mans Classic in this car I think? Lucky nothing went wrong on that trip
As for 3.8 it is a whole lot of cash for little benefit.
