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richie2uk
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Joined: 22 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:27 pm    Post subject: John Hawkins and Specialist Cars of Malton. Action Group? Reply with quote

Here is my sorry tale in detail. I’m not posting for sympathy, nor do I want to hear “ how could you have been be so stupid” I’ve got the T Shirt. I know I was duped and fleeced by a disgusting fraudster. This is just to serve as a warning to others in the future.


“Hi Chap, the eagle has landed” was how John Hawkins owner of Malton Specialist Cars told me my beloved Porsche 911 had arrived at his showroom in May 2019, to be sold on a Sale or Return basis.
We had agreed a price to be returned to us and the amount above this as a profit for SCoM.
I trusted the company, as they were well known, recommended by others, and of course knew them from the sponsorship of the Porsche Club GB annual picnic at Witton Castle. £3,000,000 of Porsches in the showroom, “Europe’s premier Porsche Dealer” what could possibly go wrong?

Shortly after, a guy rang me to ask about the car, I told him it was an excellent vehicle with us for many years and we were selling as I was retiring. He couldn’t believe it was in such good condition, and said he was going to buy it there and then.
All went quiet and Hawkins soon stated he was a timewaster and had disappeared. In reality he had bought the car, and Hawkins told him not to bother with the V5 change of keeper “ I’ll look after that chap”
Many weeks passed and he invented another buyer to keep me quiet, “ known him 20 years chap” “ need to do some paint on it chap” “The cars in Manchester getting painted chap” All disgusting lies, all to keep me away from the truth.

In the end we got a letter from DVLA saying the keeper had been changed without our knowledge. We now knew something was badly wrong. More pathetic lies from Hawkins.
We went to the Police for help. We told them Hawkins was stealing our car or our money. In the Police Station the officers who had spoken to him, believed all of Hawkins lies and told me I had offered the car for sale through ScOM even though it was in my wife’s name. So, if I tried to report it as stolen THEY WOULD ARREST ME FOR FRAUD AND I WOULD BE IN CELLS FOR THE NIGHT ! If my wife withdrew the stolen car report THEY WOULD ARREST HER FOR WASTING POLICE TIME.
They didn’t even check who the new owner was, quoting data protection; complete rubbish of course.
The new owner had taken it back to Malton to get the radio changed and Hawkins, knowing we wanted our car back took the gearbox out pretending he was doing this for the new “buyer” meaning in effect it was immobilised. Had the police only checked with DVLA , all would have been clear, as I remembered the buyer from June and the name would have rang a bell. But they didn’t even make one tiny computer check, the sort of thing they do all day long e.g. when car has a smoking exhaust or bald tyres and they pull it over. “ Is this your car Sir?” and of course they already know if it is or not because THEY CHECKED ON THE COMPUTER AS THEY DROVE BEHIND.

So, scared witless of being arrested(!!) we backed off, and Hawkins spun even more lies to us to play for time. I eventually found out his scam by chance; a friend met the new owner in a café and he realised they were chatting about the same 911, supposedly sold to someone else. Even now he lied, “ Hi Chap, money with you tomorrow, in fact I can hear the car now, they are road testing it as we speak”

As we all know, he’s gone bust, and the chances of getting our money are zero. I was about to apply to have his company wound up when I saw he’d gone into administration one day before. Many others have been defrauded also and they have their sad stories.

Lessons? Too many to mention, obvious now but not at the time. Never trust anyone. The Police won’t help. ( Rich men’s toys anyone?) So they don’t help. Fraudsters walk free, laughing all the way to the bank. The list is endless. As I said in an earlier post, “This is not a rant, and please don’t post “ I told you so etc” I don’t need sympathy.
What I need is for anyone else affected to PM me urgently, we need to get together and take certain steps to stand any chance of getting money back from this fraudster and criminal. Maybe a Whatsapp Group? I know others are making their plans alone, so good luck, but not everyone has the resources to pursue him Me? If it takes 20 years I will get him.

What a scumbag.
 
  
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Ratattak
Silverstone


Joined: 17 Sep 2017
Posts: 126
Location: About 53°29'12"N 0°59'53"W


PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck in your quest
 
  
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6893
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck, I fear your only real route to getting anything back will be down the criminal line leading to proceeds of crime........for the authorities to take any notice of that the numbers will need to be big so getting an action group together is a good idea Thumb
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HSC911
Dijon


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bandit nooo

Good luck Thumb
 
  
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LeopoldStotch
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Joined: 25 Feb 2020
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: John Hawkins and Specialist Cars of Malton. Action Group Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about your lost car. What was it?

There's at least 5 people on the other thread who got bilked by him - I would start with PM-ing those people. Cobra said they were acting for another 10 victims in that video - maybe they would forward your email on to their clients (or maybe not if they got paid).

If you are having no help from the police it's worth looking into contacting your local crime commissioner or the police complaints commission. Alternatively writing / going in person to your MP's surgery sometimes helps in focusing the attention of local public servants.

As an earlier poster mentioned, securing a criminal conviction is key to recovering anything as the courts are loath to "pierce the veil" of a limited company for anything short of serious fraud. Getting the police to take this seriously and the CPS to prosecute is the problem, as a private prosecution (which was suggested by the American lawyer and SCoM victim on the other thread) will be expensive and difficult without the police's powers to collect evidence.

Good luck!
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Diggermeister
Montreal


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: John Hawkins and Specialist Cars of Malton. Action Group Reply with quote

LeopoldStotch wrote:

There's at least 5 people on the other thread who got bilked by him - I would start with PM-ing those people. Cobra said they were acting for another 10 victims in that video - maybe they would forward your email on to their clients (or maybe not if they got paid).
Their testimony might yet be useful in any future case. Even if they were eventually paid, there is proof there that they were not being deal with fairly.

A good idea this by the OP though.
 
  
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911UK
Porsche Community
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911uk is fully supportive of richie2uk's position.

If anyone has been in a similar position, please get in touch with the site and post the circumstance to how you have been scammed or contact us by email. All reviews will still need to follow our standard review validation process.

It is important that we work collectively to address this situation to ensure the scammers are held to account, the industry are held to account, there is better awareness of this unregulated problem and steps are put in place to ensure others are not scammed.

Why do we validate these reviews

You may think there is no need to validate what you post, because you have been the victim of a scam.

The site follow the same validation process to ensure your case is valid to protect the integrity of the site, which is very important to allow this forum to continue to provide this platform to all of you.

Since this is a public forum, this is to also avoid (1) other con men trying to get in on the bankruptcy case (does happen) and (2) the scammers themselves trying to play both sides of the game.

If anyone is unwilling to comply with the site's T&C which includes not following the correct validation process, your membership to the site will be suspended.

Just a reminder that I 911uk am not a 24 hour help line service, so if you feel the need to send abusive emails because I've not managed to fully answer or support your situation instantly, I reserve the right to remove your access.
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mark pearce
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 2749
Location: Nationwide


PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies for repeating myself, but as I ve said before

Once you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you give him title “ ownership” to/ of the car
If he sells / disposes of it if he doesn’t pay you it becomes a civil debt that you can only pursue through legal, i.e. court based methods

You cannot find the car and “ repossess “ it from the new owner, as he has bought the car from a dealer and the law recognizes that the seller being a dealer has title to the car.

So basically you are stuffed
The police aren’t interested in it being fraud, as they think it’s a civil debt.
Remember a lot of businesses are limited liability companies, directors use Ltd cos for tax and to protect personal/ marital assets

So when you give someone a car on sale or return, you are giving it to them, if they don’t pay you, probably because they don’t have the money
You have lost it

With the current uncertainty, it’s prob a time to go and get it back
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Counter Of Beans
Montreal


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 513
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting your tale Richie, and I wish you and others well in getting some sort of justice.

One question: what has Hawkins done with the proceeds from people like Richie? If there's, say, 20 people in Richie's position, and each has lost, say, £100,000 then there's £2m of assets somewhere to be recovered, surely? Is this what jonttt refers to in his "proceeds of crime" comment?

Given the number of SOR issues, this is an area of public concern, I'd have thought, not just a run of the mill civil matter. It would be incredibly disappointing if the authorities (AKA the police) are not interested.
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6893
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted up very early in these SOR frauds that they smell very much of “Teeming and Lading”......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeming_and_lading

Ie they where viable businesses that in the boom times did well.....they funded a certain lifestyle for the owners .........then things get tougher and rather than adjust lifestyle / to maintain an “image” they “borrow” easy money to be able to pay other debts......the intention initially is “its only for a while, they will get paid back”.......but that never happens and things are put in motion and a hole is dug which just gets bigger and bigger.....behind it all is that inability to adjust your lifestyle and be perceived to be struggling to all the “friends” and “associates” you mingle with....a large part is self denial and greed..........its looks as if in this case the whole thing escalated when he got involved with genuine fraudsters who helped facilitate the fraud when the whole probably got too big for him to get out of ie went to another level again......

Facilitating this whole scam was the weakness of the SOR system which was exploited.........

There are 3 issues to me:

- those affected directly getting some form of justice from him, I fear that may only be through criminal rather than civil prosecution and POCAHONTAS

- a wider “public interest” issue with SOR rather like (but on a smaller scale) than the widespread fraud in pensions due to regulation not being fit for purpose when they relaxed the pension rules and relied too much on the integrity of regulated financial advisors

- ensuring that this crooks next venture is “impacted” by his history so he is never again in a position of trust......the easiest way to do that bizarrely is that whatever venture he is associated with next, whatever banking arrangements are in place that he has been fully disclosed as a person of significant control with his history of fraud

If interest can be taken in SOR as being of “public interest” then the SFO can get interested as it has a wider public benefit than just those affected in this case .....the numbers involved and especially if a link between the “Yorkshire triangle” can be established this could lead to a view of significant enough organised crime for them to take further in the public interest
Judge .......that ultimately may be the best route to proceeds of crime which is multi national ie where the proceeds have been used abroad to buy property etc.......
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jonttt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol auto spell correct Pocahontas should have been POCA (proceeds of crime act) Grin
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Magic919
Barcelona


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And were, not where.
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magic919 wrote:
And were, not where.


But I like H’s and am crap at English Bandit
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark pearce wrote:
Apologies for repeating myself, but as I ve said before

Once you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you give him title “ ownership” to/ of the car
If he sells / disposes of it if he doesn’t pay you it becomes a civil debt that you can only pursue through legal, i.e. court based methods

You cannot find the car and “ repossess “ it from the new owner, as he has bought the car from a dealer and the law recognizes that the seller being a dealer has title to the car.

So basically you are stuffed
The police aren’t interested in it being fraud, as they think it’s a civil debt.
Remember a lot of businesses are limited liability companies, directors use Ltd cos for tax and to protect personal/ marital assets

So when you give someone a car on sale or return, you are giving it to them, if they don’t pay you, probably because they don’t have the money
You have lost it

With the current uncertainty, it’s prob a time to go and get it back


A good post Mark! Spot-on also. If SCoM has gone jnto liquidation or bankrupt, these unfortunate punters become unsecured creditors (or naybe not if title has passed to SCoM). Collective litigation probably has little chance of success. After all, if SCoM has no cashflow and not the assets to pay creditors, ot us exactly how they find themselves in bankruptcy or liquidation. By all mesns they csn collectively try to recover what they are owed, but I suspect at a great cost with limited chance of success. Creditors cannot chase SCoM personal assets. Only the business assets.

Sad. Very sad case with little chance of success.......
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jonttt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats why the criminal angle would be the most likely to succeed ie a criminal conviction can lead to access to personal assets via POCA........its also illegal (ie a criminal offence) to trade whilst insolvent Wink
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
Thats why the criminal angle would be the most likely to succeed ie a criminal conviction can lead to access to personal assets via POCA........its also illegal (ie a criminal offence) to trade whilst insolvent Wink


Remote possibility of a criminal conviction as it is debt (as per Msrk Pearce's post). Proving the business was trading whilst insolvent is extrenely difficult.

Its a free world, people can try collectively exploring or recovering their monies but at a huge cost and very small possibility of winning. The Police are not interested.
Sooner or later one has to accept they took a risk with SoR and the choice of dealership for the SoR. The risk in this case resulted in loss. It then becomes having to accept the loss and move on. Tough message perhaps but probably a heavy tinge of reality.......
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
Thats why the criminal angle would be the most likely to succeed ie a criminal conviction can lead to access to personal assets via POCA........its also illegal (ie a criminal offence) to trade whilst insolvent Wink


Remote possibility of a criminal conviction as it is debt (as per Mark Pearce's post). Proving the business was trading whilst insolvent is extrenely difficult and unlikely to be proven.

Its a free world, people can try collectively exploring or recovering their monies but at a huge cost and very small possibility of winning. The Police are not interested. It is sern by them as a civil matter. And as Mark points out, you hand over title to your car to the dealer in absolute trust.

Sooner or later one has to accept they took a risk with SoR and the choice of dealership for the SoR. The risk in this case resulted in loss that looks prima fascie to be unrecoverable.

It then becomes a case of having to accept the loss that came with the risk and move on. Tough message perhaps but probably a heavy tinge of reality.......
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jonttt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmmm no one said it would be easy but I think you need to read up on director responsibilities with regard to fraud or the intent of fraud and also trading whilst knowingly insolvent.....there are certain areas that cross from contractual / civil debts to criminal Judge
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are talking to the wrong guy. I am a Director! And I know what gies with it and what I'm talking about. But you can cite 'grey areas' as much as you like, but venturing into grey areas is costly and unpredictable outcomes or chances of success.
These guys can take advice, consider their options and decide next steps. I suspect on the weight of evidence and murkiness of grey areas and the inherent chsllenges, they may decide to accept and come to terms with their loss.

Now, if I was to speak as a solicitor, "on the one hand.....BUT on the other hand....."

I rest my case and you can decide....
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