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Luddite
Montreal


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 593
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting times indeed, now that No10 is in firm control of No11, it will be an education to see how much BJ or his advisors tend to tackle climate change.. if at all, given there is a budget in circa 4 weeks..?

Yeah, sure, statement of intent have been made re climate change, suggestions on this that and the other too, BUT I suspect taxation, like sheep dogs is one sure way of moving the shee...err...population in the desired direction of travel..whatever that might be..? But then a politicians priority it to retain power so the sheep dogs are taught not to nip the heels of the sheep in the process of shifting them to pastures new..?

Can we look forward to, cuts in road tax for "Classic" performance vehicles that may only be used for circa 3k miles a year, or do you think there is something better on the cards to improve the "investment" potential of your classic...? But then what might be defined as a Classic...hmmm? Can not remember the exactitudes re applying for Classic/Historic status, though think the current cut off year may be 1979, and I suspect a measure of "originality" may be part of the requirements to be determined Classic.... Thus it does seem that OFFICIALDOM has taken it upon it`s self to determine that which may or not be determined a Classic, and if that is the case the question has to be WHY did they do so... Yeah well to improve on the value of your "investment." ? RestoMods need not apply it seems.... best drive those Singers into the ground, perhaps..? (-:

If anyone is trying to sell you on the idea of investment potential or, that this or that is Classic or will be a future Classic... Like so many Youtubers promoting their business, or the value of their car... It might be worth pressing a re-set on your thinking in the hope of introducing a bit of reality..?

It would seem that perhaps the best way to maximise returns from a classic or indeed any ICE machine is to make good use of it relative to your own priorities, be that from track day demon to garage queen.. whatever... ENJOY. Question
 
  
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spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 6485
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about all the above but this global warming is wreaking havoc, very cold in Basra and then there’s all the snow in Bahdgad Grin
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ice age is coming, the sun's zooming in!
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Marky911
Sepang


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2821



PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
Not sure about all the above but this global warming is wreaking havoc, very cold in Basra and then there’s all the snow in Bahdgad Grin


Grin


Luddite don’t get too swept up in it yet. The times they are a changing’ an’ all that but you’re becoming the new forum profit of doom. Hand

I think you’ve mentioned values in every post. Obviously that’s one of the main points to some folk and I for one wouldn’t really want my £60k car turning into a £10k one anytime soon but by the time it does I’ll be too old to care and remember, cars never used to be investments. I think I’ve made money on one car out of about 50 and that was a modest amount. Nothing I can’t earn at work.

I’m far more bothered about the threat to my freedom of being able to drive for pleasure, when I want and also my retirement plans which involve doing off in a motorhome with my motorbike on the back.

We are all aware of the values debate, but the arse isn’t dropping out of the market yet.
Don’t panic Mr Mannering. Very Happy
 
  
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Macca38
Newbie


Joined: 10 Sep 2019
Posts: 39
Location: London


PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think as 911 owners we are in a better position than some other folk who own classic cars due 911 spanning many different generations and thus keeping interest levels high with different age groups.

A big 'want' is an e-type jag for me, the prices of those are tumbling at the minute. I wasn't sure quite sure why until a mate pointed out to me that most kids now don't have a clue what an e-type is and have no desire to own one when they have the money to buy one. If the next generation aren't going to buy them the prices will continue to fall regardless of the situation with electric cars coming to market.

Conversely the cost of old Fords has gone crazy as my generation now have the money to buy them, they just aren't interested in 60's cars as they have no affinity attached to them. I think you really need to have finger on the pulse and a massive slice of luck to make money on classics at the minute.
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Luddite
Montreal


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 593
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky, I am too..err..mature to get swept up in anything...(-:

I apologise if it seems I may be the profit of doom, for that is not my intention, I come here to learn through discussion. I do hope your retirement plans work out as you might hope.. My good lady and I took on a few Southern European trips over a few years in our old open top sports car, adventures which we greatly enjoyed, now a few years into retirement, I doubt we could manage the physical exposure of such trips today, so perhaps best not leave it too late..? Though having typed that we did manage a trip to LM classic and on down to Beynac in the auto tin top a couple of years back, would have been a killer without air con..jeez..!!!

As I have typed more than once I claim no expertise in economics or much else, though I am unsure if those holding degrees from the renowned temples of financial education in the US or UK, who used those qualifications to then become top line economists or bankers, saw the signs of the impending financial crash, which sure as 1+1=2, MUST have been so obviously in the making for some considerable time prior to the crash it`s self...But NO..? As our American cousins say.. Go figure..?

Seems to me that the Porsche market is exactly that, a market more than interesting or fun transport, thus if you look at it from a market perspective what are the influences in any market..? Markets rise and fall and in the process there are those who make money from the changes in value both up and down..? For there to be winners there have to be losers, and the smart market managers keep an eagle out for millisecond by millisecond movements that might affect that market and the faster their data systems can operate the more potential they have to make make deals ahead of their their competitors...?

Now it seems to me that quite a few milliseconds have passed since a number governments have declared climate emergencies, and the media has been earning it`s coin promoting/educating us as to the amount of waste and contamination of the planet from every angle imaginable..? Choose to believe the media or not, car manufacturers have for some time now been searching out alternatives to ICE, and spending HOW MUCH in the process...hmm?

Sure I have used the terms Investment and value but surely I also mentioned ENJOYMENT of a Porsche or classic in any way one cares to choose as perhaps providing the best possible returns...? I might suspect anyone who locked on to the words "investment" or "value" may have those two aspects high on their own list of priorities...? NOT that I would suggest that either are unimportant, and more so to some than others, given after house purchase, vehicle(s) may be the next most expensive outlay for folk on average incomes....?

Macca38, I agree with much of your thinking relative to the time span of Porsche production and that it covers a few generations logically affecting variations in terms of appreciation across the range. By comparison Morgan as a sports car manufacturer have been around even longer, though I doubt it has a similar popularity across the generations..? Thus it seems there may be other factors at play..?

I suspect the effect of baby boomers loosing their grip on the perch will have more of an effect in the Morgan marketplace than in the Porsche market, though I also suspect climate change thinking and legislation may have an even greater effect..? Yup, as I typed earlier, have seen mid 80`s Capri`s sell for £50k...though I suspect the age group for that may also be getting on a bit now..? (-: I suspect even younger folk will be looking for all the bells and whistles that came with digitisation of everything... IF they are not greatly inhibited by one means or other from buying such machinery..socially, politically, or otherwise motivated.. Question
 
  
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Luddite
Montreal


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 593
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK..OK... I get it, you have your fingers in your ears and are singing la la la la....(-:

My thinking is that for the RETURNS scenario to work out relative to your Porsche/Classic ICE INVESTMENT....... Ideally the cash you spend can hopefully be written off in terms of your ENJOYMENT of the machine in whatever time period there may be left to enjoy it, and during that period of time whatever it might be, I suspect the restrictions to enjoy it on the road may increase with the passage of time....?

For those who can NOT just write off the costs involved in their Porsche/Classic or worse still are dependant on it`s value retention or increase relative to ones personal future financial planning... Please take time monitor reality..

As for what reality and the rate of evolution might be...? If you beam up the vid in this link, you might widen your thinking a tad, all be it from a German perspective...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXjVxaKzv4

Question
 
  
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Counter Of Beans
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 449
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an interesting watch, Luddite, thank you. Certainly the author believes that a zero emissions future for new cars will happen faster than we might think.
However, what does this mean for existing (ICE) vehicles? I think the answer is........it depends. It depends on what people want, and what we tell our politicians to do. What worries me is that the hysteria of the "climate crisis" lobby may result in ICE cars becoming seen as anti-social. If enough policy makers think there's votes in banning ICE cars, or taxing them off the road, well, that could be the outcome.

I've posted this before, but if you like proper music, have a listen to "Red Barchetta" by Rush, featuring the late and truly great Neil Peart on drums. It's all about a dystopian future where rebels race old sports cars around the countryside, thereby defying the Motor Law.
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stichill99
Nürburgring


Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 439
Location: Scottish Borders


PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:33 pm    Post subject: The End is Nigh Reply with quote

Surely thinking rationally about classic cars and the small mileage they do they are not killing the planet like coal fired power stations. I went to see a new bodyshop last week about a touch up. It was full of old motors,vw camper,944,E46 bmw,mgb and he doesn't aim for the classic market.
He said he was very busy and had been all winter. Do the government want to see the industry around old cars die?
Why do Easyjet and the like not get more grief over air travel pollution? Nobody have the balls to take them on? How many unnecessary flights are taken each year? My relations alone were probably over 20 last year.
If over 70% of pollution is in the production of a new car why not educate people to keep them longer?
 
  
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Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 449
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stillchill99, don't you come on here with your rational thoughts...."how dare you"!!
I know this site isn't political, so all I'll add is that the UK contributes (I think) around 2% of global CO2, and I imagine that classic cars are a tiny proportion of that 2%. So rationally it shouldn't matter a jot.

If any politician thinks a policy will play with the voters they'll favour it. Most voters don't drive old cars, but most (well, many) voters do fly short haul. Most voters have no idea how much carbon is used to make a new electric car, or the awful consequences of rare metal mining, and most voters appear to believe that electric cars are powered by fairy dust.

Rational politicians dealing in unpleasant truths, or virtue-signalling politicians pandering to dimwitted voters, hmm let me me think which is more likely......
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7587
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here is JLR's vision of the future of urban transport...Imagine a world where motoring is reduced to hailing a one of these via an app.
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/project-vector-is-jaguar-s--smart-city--slicker/41875
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Luddite
Montreal


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 593
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.O.B. I am pleased you found something of interest in the vid. Regardless of all the engineering and alternative science presented by those who are inclined to argue for their "beliefs," for me they kinda fall into the category of those who once said things like " If man was meant to fly, god would have given him wings" hmm..?

I have no point to prove or investment to protect at all costs in terms of Classic vehicles, which is fortunate given that day by day, evidence appears to suggest that any such "investment" seems to be more at risk of loosing it`s current financial market standing...?

Given the vid and so much more, it does indeed seem that huge amounts of time effort and money are being invested in "zero" emissions technologies of one kind or another by the automotive industry in general..?

As for the Classic car movement, well I guess there was once a time when the lords of the land and thus the law makers had amongst them Vintage car enthusiasts who might have a quiet word in the ear of those and such as those in order to ensure Vintage/Classic car`s were "catered for" reasonably if and when any new safety regs were likely to be adopted into law... However today the old boys network in every area of life is being exposed now that everyone of us can spill the beans on to the www about EVERYTHING, thus the way it used to be, would seem to be no more...?

Regardless of low annual mileage and actual pollutant levels created by classic car usage, I suspect politicians are unlikely to be able to protect their/our interests as perhaps they once did.? Seems more like human nature may dictate that blasting down a quiet country road in a Porsche for a bit of fun is just bound to annoy the general populace if made aware...? Thus in time, to imagine you will receive friendly waves from folk as you drive along is perhaps a bit of a pipe dream...?

Which brings me on to the thinking that somehow pointing at others who most definitely pollute more than us, seems to be just another aspect of human nature, but unfortunately I suspect it has little chance of providing any sort of worthwhile outcomes..?

As for the industry involved in repair and maintenance of old cars and the imagined priorities of government...Really....? What about the sudden lay offs in new car manufacturing, do you remember when the UK had folk employed in coal mining, steel manufacture, ship building, and so much more, or have you just forgotten..? Jeez, seems to me that govts thought that funny money was that which could keep the country afloat, till it nearly sunk us all, or have you forgotten that too..? A quick update on banking HSBC is looking at 10k redundancies..... So if banking is again reducing it`s labour costs, how do you imagine the country will manage the EXPECTATIONS of the populace over the next few years... hmm...?

The number of vehicles on the road is astounding to an old geezer like me, thus it seems logical (?) that the next big industry will be re-cycling them all as folk are likely to be taxed out of their usage of them by many and various means..? Govt ministers are talking about more buses and trains, opening up old rail lines that were axed by Beeching, does that hint at possible "encouragement" towards use of public transportation systems by the general populace..I wonder..?

JLR project Vector... they are just wasting money, like VW and all the others.....nothing will change.... yeah right..!!!

Believe whatever you wish, though I suggest it might be best if you can keep your eye on the ball, IF you are in any way dependant on financial RETURNS from your INVESTMENT in your Porsche or classic....?

As ever just thinking in type.... Question
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17344
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fact: man-made CO2 affects the climate is a theory that has yet to be proven.......and we're changing the World on a theory nooo
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wasz
Paul Ricard


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 3069


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Fact: man-made CO2 affects the climate is a theory that has yet to be proven.......and we're changing the World on a theory nooo


It's not a theory Alex, it's a known contributor to the changing climate. It may not be solely responsible, but we 100% know for a fact that co2 has a warming effect.

Quote:
The heat-trapping nature of carbon dioxide and other gases was demonstrated in the mid-19th century.2 Their ability to affect the transfer of infrared energy through the atmosphere is the scientific basis of many instruments flown by NASA. There is no question that increased levels of greenhouse gases must cause the Earth to warm in response.


https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17344
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By how much?

Some scientists claim the CO2 experiment is wrong and its down to atmospheric pressure:

https://www.wnd.com/2017/07/study-blows-greenhouse-theory-out-of-the-water/

Being honest, I don't think anyone knows, so in my opinion we'd be better off spending money on stuff we do know helps, like flood defences, river dredging and other security measures.



...........and haven't NASA been busted for "massaging" the temp data?

https://realclimatescience.com/2017/11/visualizing-noaanasa-us-data-tampering/
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stichill99
Nürburgring


Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 439
Location: Scottish Borders


PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm    Post subject: climate change Reply with quote

I do think there is a lot of pandering to dimwits. You are quite right about dredging rivers. I have a friend in Northumberland whose field next to the river was getting flooded because the river had never been cleaned out and the river level was now above the height of the drains entering it. He had a digger in doing another job and he then asked him to clean the river out. When the job was almost done a jobsworth from the Enviroment agency appeared and stopped work immediately. My friend said he was made to feel like he had murdered somebody and was threatened with large fine/jail. He said it was just unbelievable! The good news is his field doesn't flood now!
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Local village to me (Whalley) constantly floods due to the river needing dreading. When they tried dredging it a fisherman went running to the council and they bottled it and stopped dredging. My milkman tried telling me the other day it was best not to dredge as it slowed the flow down....I don't know how I kept a straight face. Floor
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spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Local village to me (Whalley) constantly floods due to the river needing dreading. When they tried dredging it a fisherman went running to the council and they bottled it and stopped dredging. My milkman tried telling me the other day it was best not to dredge as it slowed the flow down....I don't know how I kept a straight face. Floor


You have a milkman Dont know Floor That’s like something offa the eighties.

address for wells fargo near me
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17344
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's the same Milkman I've had since I was 6 (42 years ago).

.........and his nickname is also Benny after Earnie.
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Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...........aaaand another thing; again apologies if a little political, but schools, colleges and (especially) universities have swallowed the whole Climate Emergency agenda to a degree that would make Alex despair.
Point being, a generation of younger voters have been indoctrinated, and I use the word deliberately, to believe 100% that Man Made Global Warming is a fact. Anyone who disagrees, especially if they drive a Porsche, is simply wrong and can be dismissed as a crank (shaft?).

Since virtually none of this group will know the joy of the flat six, they will cheerfully support a ban on such monstrous polluting vehicles. Whilst ripping up half of Chile to get the Lithium that'll be needed. Of course, the yoof are already perfectly happy with Australia's Lithium mining, so that's nothing new.

After all, we need to save the planet, no? Whatever it takes.
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