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996 3.4 on Track Days

DarthFaker said:
So having done the math, it makes a lot of sense.

We're looking at the potential of the engine which is known to be around 0.8G before the oiling system can give up the ghost.

Our cars accelerate at around 0.57G so there's no issue there, laterally they can peak at around 0.9G in stock form, perhaps a professional driver can sustain it there long enough to starve the engine but highly unlikely as you said the scavenge pump is being fed just fine.

But we can decelerate at around 1.3G then pull straight into a 0.9G left hander, that's going to starve the scavenge pump on bank 2 (cylinders 4,5,6) quite easily in the hands of a professional driver.

Makes a lot more sense to me now, think that X51 pump is really quite necessary for the X51 baffled sump to really make the difference it was intended to make.
Click to expand...

Porsche made the X51 kit at a stage in the development of the 996 platform when they were evaluating the M96 for use in the Porsche Cup cars.

I imagine that they discovered the limitations of the stock M96 oiling system by running it on slicks with a professional driver, probably fairly quickly.

If running on slicks they may well have had issues under braking in a straight line as well.

The X51 pack was extremely comprehensive in terms of just how many parts of the engine were changed from, or added to the original M96 - which if you only look at the (alleged) 30bhp gain doesn't make a great deal of sense.

However, when you start to consider the issues they were probably trying to resolve it makes a great deal more sense.
 
Apologies to Mr Corn and Dammit if I'm jumping the gun here but looking at all of the discussions and development going into the additional scavenge pumps, towel rails etc. do you guys see this as being something that you might be looking to sell on to us lesser engineers or is it more something that you are doing as a "Fun" project amongst yourselves? I ask because if you WERE to look at marketing the kit I would like to express an interest in advance.

I'll leave it at that...

Loving your work though!
 
I did Brands Feb1st it was great. As the organisers MSVT suggested keep it to around 10 minutes a stint with a break between so you and the car stay fresh. After the first few laps come in and let the tyre pressure down to 35 ish and get back out. Car performed brilliantly (C4s Cab) and was unscathed after a full day. I will be doing it again to see if I can improve on consistency but at least I know where the edge is now!
 
Anyone know whether the 996 3.6 Carrera (non-X51) has oil surge issues like the 3.4 in the cylinder head or was it fixed with an additional scavenge pump in the cylinder head?

Cheers.
 
Tourist said:
Anyone know whether the 996 3.6 Carrera (non-X51) has oil surge issues like the 3.4 in the cylinder head or was it fixed with an additional scavenge pump in the cylinder head?

Cheers.
Click to expand...

It wasn't fixed with an extra scavenge pump, but isn't known to suffer the same. I don't know what changes were made.

MC
 
MisterCorn said:
Tourist said:
Anyone know whether the 996 3.6 Carrera (non-X51) has oil surge issues like the 3.4 in the cylinder head or was it fixed with an additional scavenge pump in the cylinder head?

Cheers.
Click to expand...

It wasn't fixed with an extra scavenge pump, but isn't known to suffer the same. I don't know what changes were made.

MC
Click to expand...

From what I understand the M96 3.6L and M97 engines don't oil starve as easily as the early M96 engines do, but any of them can oil starve on R compound tyres driven by a talented individual.

Dry Sump lubrication is the cure, it's a real shame Porsche continue with this integrated Dry Sump nonsense, why they just didn't continue with the proper Dry Sump I will never know..
 
What are peoples opinions on the Accusump solution? If scavenging is an issue resulting in a loss of oil supply, then surely the Accusump would cover this momentary drop in pressure? Without having to add extra scavenge pumps.

Accusump and X51 Sump? Anyone running this combo?
 
IIRC the non Mezger GT3's are all running integrated dry-sump, as are all 991 and 992 911's.

It had issues in the M96 and M97, but you can also see a continuous evolution of the concept through the M9X series engines.

The external tank and associated plumbing represents complexity, weight and cost, and it has to be packaged- would be my guess as to why it was dropped by Porsche engineers.
 
Are there any good apps for the iPhone which would show the fore/aft/lateral G force, which could be set up with alerts to beep if certain parameters are reached? Might be a good safeguard in the situations Dammit notes in his excellent post.
 
Dammit said:
IIRC the non Mezger GT3's are all running integrated dry-sump, as are all 991 and 992 911's.

It had issues in the M96 and M97, but you can also see a continuous evolution of the concept through the M9X series engines.

The external tank and associated plumbing represents complexity, weight and cost, and it has to be packaged- would be my guess as to why it was dropped by Porsche engineers.
Click to expand...

Correct, the Mezger M96/M97 engines and the 9A1 engines fitted into the GT3 and GT2 cars are true dry sump, so they do offer a proper motor sport engine, but it's a shame they're trying to peddle the Carrera as a sports car where it's probably less track ready than a MX5 in all fairness, I've never heard of anyone blowing a £150 MX5 motor on track and they're running slicks in some series. I know the flat six presents some interesting issues but these cars were never cheap and they're still not cheap even today they're still more than some new cars, I just think it's a poor showing from Porsche.

Despite this though, the chassis, brakes handling and general experience is worth it in the 996, just wish they'd not put a chocolate engine in the car.
 
Dunno about you guys but I never had the balls to properly thrash my 996 on track, and it certainly wasn't on slicks. I save that style for when I'm driving someone else's car!

As a result I doubt I ever got near those limits discussed.

I can't imagine it's really a massive problem for a car occasionally driven on track. Just have a bit of mechanical sympathy. If you are out every month they you will benefit from X51.

Oh and don't ever buy genuine parts (brake ducts) from Design 911, they are always cheaper from your OPC.
 
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.
 
crash7 said:
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.
Click to expand...

There are some fast corners at Castle Coombe but that is a lot of cornering force!

A friend of mine has just bought a v1 Boxster with the 3.4 engine and some sticky tyres for a track day in May at Castle Coombe. I have flagged this topic to him and would expect him to be along soon!
 
TV8 said:
crash7 said:
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.
Click to expand...

There are some fast corners at Castle Coombe but that is a lot of cornering force!

A friend of mine has just bought a v1 Boxster with the 3.4 engine and some sticky tyres for a track day in May at Castle Coombe. I have flagged this topic to him and would expect him to be along soon!
Click to expand...

At least your friend can run the 'backwards' pump from Porsche, on the Boxster it needs to run on the opposite bank so is correct for this application.

MC
 
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