Future proofed 996 /how much & how long is a piece of st

bazhart said:

..... I am beginning to wonder if there is a link somewhere on the Internet to rogue figures because I cannot find anything like the figures you are quoting - where are you getting them from?

You also seem to have added more than the Vat twice as 6 cylinders + vat is £3000 (not £3,200) and then you seem to have added VAT on again at the end.
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Your own post just above is where my figures came from and you say net of vat

bazhart said:

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I asked him what is a typical lowest price 'engine only" rebuild we have done in the past year? – after looking up a few invoices – the answer was 'around £4K",
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A set of 6 new aerospace alloy Nikasil plated closed deck cylinders fitted with re-coated pistons and new rings is £3200 (£533 each) and cylinders with New Capricorn (Hartech exclusive) pistons £3,700 (£617 each). (All quoted prices are net of VAT).

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Whats a capricorn piston then?

Surely you are going to want new pistons if the original plastic coating breaking up is what caused the bore score in the first place - else the piston coating on the rest will break up eventually too?

OK I accept the word "net" can be confusing (some claim it means it includes everything and others that it is after all deductions including deductions for tax. I have taken it to mean before tax (as on the stock exchange web site) - but that is no excuse for not noticing that on our web site every single price states clearly after it "+VAT" no intention of ambiguity there I was just trying to save my valuable time from typing "+ Vat" after every comment (and am not rising to a debate on that).

Also the quote you have picked out starts off with the price for cylinders and then states "cylinders with new Capricorn pistons" £3,700. It is difficult to understand how you can think that says "price just for Capricorn pistons"!

As far as pistons go you need to read our report which explains that Nikasil cylinders can run without any coating whatsoever because the silicon particles in the Nikasil matrix are about 1/10 of the size of those in either Alusil or Lokasil and therefore are too small to do any damage if they break free (which they almost never do unlike the others).

With options provided by us to re-use "good pistons", or new Porsche Mahle pistons, or Capricorn pistons or re-coated pistons - we have to make them all end up the same size (to obtain the correct piston clearance).

If existing pistons just have some coating loss then removing it does no harm and by replacing it with a coating developed specifically to work even better in Nikasil than a plain surface - we manage to help out a lot of customers to save a considerable cost without any detrimental consequences.

Capricorn pistons to our unique specification are matched to the cylinders they supply to us (and are undoubtedly the best option) and new Porsche pistons vary a bit in size (so we often have to diamond hone the finished cylinders to the perfect clearance) but if original pistons have no wear or coating loss they work perfectly in our Nikasil cylinders (but benefit from new rings of course).

But just forgetting about semantics about "net", VAT and maths - what you are consistently implying (or perhaps trying to prove for some reason) by trying to add up our prices higher than we state in our publications - is that we are liars and trying to mislead everyone and you end up with prices about double what they actually are - which is wrong and needs to be challenged.

When I say what our lower prices have been that is true and accurate and when we say it can be up to a much higher price we include the extras that usually result in such prices.

You must remember that some customers have a wrecked crank, damaged cylinder blocks, damaged cylinder heads and for them a rebuild will be costly, but others have good cranks, good pistons (perhaps just needing to replace one) and in those circumstances they will want that one piston to match the remaining 5 that are OK and therefore be a Porsche piston (and weight and profile matching is obviously an issue as well).

However much anyone has a down on what we do (and for whatever reason) fortunately the vast majority of the public (and other specialists) recognise the value and quality we provide and especially when they find that although we have a minimum quality that we will not go below we have many options to suit their long term plans and finances and help them to come to the best all round decisions without pressure and at the end of it provide the solutions with the best reputation anywhere. reports now growing of engines lasting years and still working perfectly are common.

Why my first reaction was "dam it" because I have now spent most of the day answering scurrilous comments that should be unnecessary when we have already spent ages providing the answers clearly on our web site and in our reports and this valuable time wasted to correct inaccuracies that always go against what we do here - when I have many other responsibilities developing new solutions and different products for those that appreciate it.

Baz

Baz, I think you are one of the most widely respected engine builders on this forum. An engine which has been built by your company is seen by many as a great quality mark. Due to the success of your work and particularly with your fix for the bore scoring, when many people hear 'Hartech Rebuild' they are thinking of the full on treatment. Drive the car in, drive the car out. Full 6 cylinders and liners, new bearings, new water pump, the works. Clearly that is the Rolls Royce of what you offer and is going to be a lot more than a standard rebuild. Due to your reputation for doing this kind of work so well, I suspect that the more standard rebuild for a refresh on an engine dropped off on a pallet gets overlooked. It is a shame that there was some confusion on pricing, but I doubt that any of it was malicious.
I admit, if I saw a car advertised with a 'Hartech Rebuild' I would expect it to have new liners and pistons. That is what you are known for and is more of a compliment than anything else IMO.

MC

Thanks very much for that, but it is still wrong for people to post as knowledgable experts to discourage others quoting realistic prices by responding to comments about the suggestions for buying and or rebuilding an engine for one of these cars by stating inflated prices and minimum costs that are far too high and actually nearer maximum costs!

Baz

bazhart said:

But just forgetting about semantics about "net", VAT and maths - what you are consistently implying (or perhaps trying to prove for some reason) by trying to add up our prices higher than we state in our publications - is that we are liars and trying to mislead everyone and you end up with prices about double what they actually are - which is wrong and needs to be challenged.

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I'm not trying to mislead anyone or accuse you of lying. I don't think i ever posted anything about your prices to anyone apart from just then.

If I read your posts in that way then others will have done. People skim read forums they do not pick out the nitty gritty, I just skimmed and totted up.

This is probably where your "misinformation" is coming from. Just need some clarity.

If I had an m96 fail I'd be bringing it over for a quote, anything else is pure speculation as each engine will need different amounts of work.

OK lets forget it - but for the sake of clarity - I just typed "net" & "VAT" on the Internet search and it comes back with "the Nett price is the price excluding VAT. Also called "ex VAT" or "Net". "Gross" includes everything.


Can I also say that although I accept and live with the fact that the public are free to express their views on the Internet Forums (and it can be a valuable tool in exposing rogues) please take the time to confirm details from them before launching into bold statements that can influence the ill informed and the businesses future - especially when legitimate businesses invest in quality products and services from which their livelihood (and that of their employees) depend and who have a very good reputation and counter miss information with accurate responses - without nibbling away at their posts trying to prove them wrong!

People do get carried away with the power of forum posts and you will be welcome to all our Hartech services in the future - but please - if you intend to be critical - show some respect to others and don't do so after just skimming a post and at least check your facts first.

Baz

I understand your concern about how harmful incorrect information could be to your business but I don't think there was any malicious intent in the comments. I think by and large Hartech are held in high regard by most 996 owners.

I believe a number of factors contribute to the imaginary figure some of us have for a rebuild.

1. Nearly everyone that has had a rebuild quotes a figure north of £10k. Many of them don't go into detail on what was done and most are done due to a failure which inevitably means it's not a basic rebuild. I think people also like to "round up", often by more than a few hundred as it makes them sound a bit of a billy big balls.

2. M96 owners all hope for the best but need to prepare for the worst. I think for most of us the worst case prices stick in our mind as a "one day this might end with a bill for £££££..."

3. While your posts on here and Pistonheads are always informative and appreciated, they are very long... and the simple fact is folk skim read at best. People can't even be arsed to search and read a few post titles to find info let alone read a long article.

Some of us do read however, and I slept a little better last night knowing that a rebuild from a reputable company can be had for half as much as I previously thought.

Thanks for that UncleP that makes the time I have spent replying worthwhile.

Baz