Future proofed 996 /how much & how long is a piece of st

It's just a shame that the Evora is probably the worst looking Lotus in 30 years. I'd have an Exige over an Evora in a heartbeat. I'd put up with the more hardcore ride in order to drive around in such a focussed and good-looking car.

TBH, if I didn't have kids then I would certainly be driving a Lotus now, rather than the 911, the extra seats and frunk you can fit a pram into make the 911 into a family car.

SausageCreature said:

Counter Of Beans said:

Just to move the discussion on a wee bit, would you agree that a Cayman or a Boxster is 90% as good as as a 911 for two thirds of the price? OK those numbers are a bit random, but I have a couple of mates who tell me that "Caysters" are far better value for money - assuming of course that you don't need the rear seats. Thoughts?

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Absolutely I would agree with that. However, the driving characteristics are very different. When I first got my 2008 Boxster S 3.4 - the biggest engine they ever put in a Boxster S, I was able to drive it fast very quickly - predictable, easy to handle and confidence inducing.

When I first got my 911 I was not able to use the car's full power. I took it to Bruntingthorpe and had an hour-shake down on the track and then went on tour with a load of guys from 911uk.com Jackal did the film production and you can see the story here (for those that haven't already seen this amazing film) It does do high res - clcik the settings button to adjust res:

https://vimeo.com/55093995

Now, on that tour, following the 997 GT3, The 993 Carrera RS (work in progress), the Turbo 996 and the Turbo S 997.2 I learned very quickly how to position the car into all manner of adverse hairpins, tight turns, high speed cornering and what the capability of the car is. I particularly thank Jackal in his 993 for a lot of what I learned because I followed him closely and learned how to corner the car right on the edge of it's power and handling capability, mile after mile for thousands of miles - and you can see this in the video (and the follow ups for the other tours). I did three tours with this crowd and as we got to know each other better, we got more trust in one another and the driving skills for us as a group were continually increasing. Applecross in Scotland was a fantastic drive, close convoy, amazing bends and scenery.

The Boxster and Cayman are great, but the 911 is better. It also has better materials certainly in the cabin. The 911 will chose it's friends more carefully than a Cayman, and those that get to know a 911 properly and how to handle it on it's edge will *mostly* agree. That said, I know of only a few people that can really use "all a 911 can give", and do it safely. So many people own them and never figure out what to do with them, some of those folks then claim not to like the 911 - truth is, they never really knew it.

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I don't think many drivers can get 100% out of an MX5 let alone a 911. People generally can't drive for toffee (but like to think they're Senna).

The 911 is probably one of the most unique driving experiences on the road today, and it takes a lot of practice and time and dedication to really extract 100% from any car, let alone one as dynamically bonkers as the 911.

Hear hear.
I like to drive close to the edge when conditions/traffic/etc permit, and having had a procession of cars, including MX5s, I can say that the 911 is by far the hardest to drift, and the hardest to get the most out of, particularly in terms of being able to pedal the car to its maximum potential.

However, its sensitivity to setup means that a poor understeery 911 can often be improved, and overcoming the ludicrous weight distribution through technique is part of the (rewarding) challenge of learning how to get the best from the car.

Also - a lot of 911s suffer from chronic power understeer, particularly at low speed. This negates the great rear end traction advantage that the weight distribution gives. Much of that understeer can be tuned out, but I think a lot of people drive around it rather than fix it, making the driver/car combo much less quick & satisfying than it could be.

Martin996RSR said:

It's just a shame that the Evora is probably the worst looking Lotus in 30 years. I'd have an Exige over an Evora in a heartbeat. I'd put up with the more hardcore ride in order to drive around in such a focussed and good-looking car.

TBH, if I didn't have kids then I would certainly be driving a Lotus now, rather than the 911, the extra seats and frunk you can fit a pram into make the 911 into a family car.

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Amazing how many people equate opinions with facts.

I thought what I had written was so obviously opinion, given the subjectivity of aethetics, that couching it in '...in my opinion' was unnecessary.

Perhaps I should have done so for your benefit, EGTE.

If it's got a probably in there, it's not likely stated as a fact :grin:

'DAM IT"! That's exactly my reaction to some of the rubbish posted on here and I think it is both irresponsible, scurrilous and totally unfair to quote complete nonsense about our price structures as if it is fact and in the process completely mislead people.

There are statements above( that you cannot get an engine rebuild from us for under £12 or 13K minimum, pistons cost £500 each and a 3.4 has a high chance of scoring) – all absolutely wrong. Where do you people get your information from? What are you trying to achieve? Can you not read?

The prices are on our web site – please check for yourself (OK exchange rates sometimes vary and there may be some older prices knocking around various areas but they are pretty consistent and haven't changed much - if at all) and show nothing like those claims and you can request a full detailed technical report about the main causes of failures from our Sharon on [email protected] – if you really want to find out what actually causes these problems, which models it afflicts and what is best to do about it! (warning you will some need patience to flog through it as it is covering all aspects and refuting other claims – and is it a complex subject – but at least it corrects many errors generally posted on numerous forums).

I recommend anyone interested in our true costs of engine work to check our web site and if going further speak to our Grant for an up to date estimate on [email protected] – as I did after reading all this. Waiting patiently to pull him away from a huge pile of detailed enquiries and job planning sheets - I asked him what is a typical lowest price 'engine only" rebuild we have done in the past year? – after looking up a few invoices – the answer was 'around £4K", what is a typical lower priced full car job in the whole car then? 'around £6K – and these will have reliable rebuilds we don't do anything else". He also added that a top level rebuild (full job on the whole car with no unusual add-ons) is usually around £8,500 to £9K.

Of course if someone wants to take the opportunity of also fitting a new dual mass flywheel and clutch, coolant pump, exhaust system etc – it all adds up but it is not fair to add that to our price structure for core engine re-manufacture and then claim that is our minimum typical price. These are additions that are often perfectly serviceable (may have already been recently replaced or are not necessary) and while an absolutely top rate 'full English" rebuild (including many of these non-core engine replacements) can reach £13 or £14K - these are exceptions from discernible owners wanting to eliminate wear and avoid repetition that are being portrayed above as absolute minimums?

We even have numerous piston options from finding existing ones that can be re-used to re-coated, new from Porsche and manufactured exclusively for us (using the best top quality forged alloys as used in F1 applications) from an F1 manufacturer, but made to our own specifications for around £200 each (half the price of a new Porsche 3.6 piston for example and nothing like the £500 each quoted?). A set of 6 new aerospace alloy Nikasil plated closed deck cylinders fitted with re-coated pistons and new rings is £3200 (£533 each) and cylinders with New Capricorn (Hartech exclusive) pistons £3,700 (£617 each). (All quoted prices are net of VAT).

The web site also includes details of our oversized engines (that for a little extra greatly improve performance) and videos demonstrating what is involved in engine rebuilds. We carry out anything from cylinder block work for privateers and Porsche specialists (for home and abroad and obviously at even less cost) to full car rebuilds and remanufacture numerous proven add-ons (like Intermediate shafts with the later larger proven bearing for both early and later models (unobtainable elsewhere). (N.b. some Hartech exclusive modifications and products are not available for retail and only for our own rebuilds or customers).

If you do want to contact Grant - please don't be offended if he does not have the time to respond to all speculative questions at length – there is lots of reliable information about pricing and options available on our web site and we are renown for being helpful but his time is in great demand from those actually considering or needing engine work.

These cars are in the classic car arena now and people need to adapt their approach to their ownership accordingly.

But - what I cannot get my head around - is why so many contributors cannot wait to post totally inaccurate and misleading information to discourage potential future customers from what are also very sensible and properly researched options explaining what a good prospect an older 996 can be with a Hartech rebuilt engine.


Baz

Thank you bazhart. I'm assuming that you were referring to this post.

Dammit said:

I think there are a lot of costs that haven't been included in that, I'd be counting on ~£12,000 as the minimum cost to get the car back from Hartech.

Lets say you bought a 996 for £8,000, unless you got incredibly lucky it's going to need new some of the following: suspension, radiators, air conditioning condensers, fan resistors, tyres, rust-repair, and doubtless some stuff I've forgotten.

12k rebuild plus 8k car would still leave you with 5-10k of stuff to fix, depending on how fussy you are.

If you buy one with a blown engine bear in mind that the failure mode might have thrown metal fragments through the whole engine, ruining bearing surfaces and blocking oil galleys - so rather than needing a rebuild you now need a whole new engine.

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Apologies if I'm presenting bad data, looking at the website it's plainly £4,320 for a basic rebuild if you can get the car to Bolton.

And, if you were going to sell the car, I guess that's exactly what you'd do.

I've only discussed builds that include replacing parts, which obviously gets more expensive.

Um if you are gonna do it though for a keeper then surely you will

rebuild £4k
cylinder liners 3.2k
pistons 3.7k

= 10.9k + the VAT = 13k

no?

Plus "while your in there" AOS clutch brake pipes etc etc

No it "clearly states that" full rebuild including gaskets seals and fluids is £3600, A full set of cylinders is £2500 and no where can I find anything about pistons being £3.7K?

If your pistons are OK the above comes to £6,100 + vat = £7,320

If all pistons need replacing with recoated pistons and new rings & replace all cylinders @ £2500 with Cyls plus recoated pistons and rings @ £3,200 + basic rebuild @ £3,600 etc = £6,800 + vat = £8,160.

It is even less expensive to have just the 3 bank 2 cylinders replaced and bank 1 cylinders strengthened.

I am beginning to wonder if there is a link somewhere on the Internet to rogue figures because I cannot find anything like the figures you are quoting - where are you getting them from?

You also seem to have added more than the Vat twice as 6 cylinders + vat is £3000 (not £3,200) and then you seem to have added VAT on again at the end.

We are so open about our business - come on lads - whatever your motivation stop misleading people when the truth is clear and rather obvious!

Baz

Great post Baz, would be worth sticking this as many potential buyers come to this forum to get info before making a decision to get into 996 ownership and info like this is the difference! I always thought as a rule of thumb 10£ - 12£k was the figure to bear in mind but perhaps this should be halved when doing man-math :thumb:

Compare these figures to rebuilding an air cooled motor and it actually seems pretty good value to me. :thumbs:

g911omr said:

Compare these figures to rebuilding an air cooled motor and it actually seems pretty good value to me. :thumbs:

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Very true. Or a Mezger M96 :sad:

A full on big bore rebuild with everything which can be changed sorted will probably be half the price of a less well specced GT3 engine rebuild.

MC