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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7718
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
I wonder if we're entering a new era for used Porsche prices. One where they behave like other mass produced cars; i.e. they depreciate.
I mean, is there any logical reason why a Porsche 996 Carrera shouldn't depreciate? OK for rare models like a GT2 or something perhaps, but not for the mainstream cars I'd have thought. Supply and demand and all that.

And of course, you're buying a car that's typically 20 years old, so unless the previous owner has spent heavily, your new 996 will surely deplete your wallet. And if 996's are anything like my 993, parts prices can be outrageous.
And then there's the M96 engine problems that afflict the 996 to some extent.

I think this "prices will go up, won't they?" reasoning may no longer be relevant for any Porsche outside of halo models.


Absolutely. They fell too far as a result of the IMS reputation primarily, so corrected back upward to fair value, which was confused with the beginning of an 'appreciation'.

To be fair, most 996/7 parts are available for sensible money from the likes of car parts 4 less etc, and maintenance is doable by the home enthusiast.

And so what? I for one am glad that 996s have remained sensibly priced to allow enthusiasts to enjoy.
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ELA
Barcelona


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1354
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My recent experience:
I bought 3 cars in the last year (Spyder, Classic Alfa and Elise), I paid top dollar and with two of those cars I did not get a single penny off the asking price; in fact for one I paid significantly more to secure the car due to another interested party from the Middle East getting in on the act forcing up the price. So there are certainly buyers out there that will buy cars in the current climate, (maybe my examples are not perfect as all three were quite unique) but I think there are still enthusiasts about looking for these types of cars. In order to make room for the last purchase I did consider selling my 996 as I ran out of space. For the 996 nothing came of it (thankfully as I have found a solution to the space issue) but besides the usual spec related issues, it really would depend on the car: Take an early cable throttle C2 manual and there are only around 4000 cars worldwide. Start to get fussy on spec such as M220 or M030 and the field no doubt is pretty small.

I also think most people are more than a little wary of western governments moves towards Marxism based on AGW so this may have a significant impact on the mindset of enthusiasts. Add in Brexit and other non car related market factors and most are sitting on money waiting to see what happens.

The way I look at it is life is too short and if owning interesting cars is to stop at some soonish, I want to be one of the last still able to enjoy what I consider and I'm sure for most others here, is the biggest passion they have in their lives "enjoying cars".
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16462
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:


I wonder if we're entering a new era for used Porsche prices. One where they behave like other mass produced cars; i.e. they depreciate.

I mean, is there any logical reason why a Porsche 996 Carrera shouldn't depreciate? OK for rare models like a GT2 or something perhaps, but not for the mainstream cars I'd have thought. Supply and demand and all that ……..............…....



It's interesting hearing the views of recent entrants to the world of 911s.

For the record all variants of the 996 actually depreciated to their lowest value in 2013 and have slowly risen back to where they are now.

Asking prices for Carreras are about the same now as they were in 2011.
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 325



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Parsley"]There have been quite a few 12k coupe/manual cars recently WITH the IMS/RMS done and in good order. Even a nice 4s at 13k with all the work done.

Really?
I often scan the classifieds and don't recall seeing these cars.
And anyway, who wants a 996 that's had its IMS bearing yanked out and replaced anyway?
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Parsley
Silverstone


Joined: 12 Jan 2020
Posts: 108
Location: Hebrides


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="g911omr"]
Parsley wrote:
There have been quite a few 12k coupe/manual cars recently WITH the IMS/RMS done and in good order. Even a nice 4s at 13k with all the work done.

Really?
I often scan the classifieds and don't recall seeing these cars.
And anyway, who wants a 996 that's had its IMS bearing yanked out and replaced anyway?


Yes came across quite a few. And I would rather buy one that's had the IMS done. But that's just me personally.
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 325



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are bound to be the occasional bargains to be had. I think that picking up a nice C4S for £13k is complete fantasy, depending on the perception of what 'nice' is.
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Parsley
Silverstone


Joined: 12 Jan 2020
Posts: 108
Location: Hebrides


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g911omr wrote:
There are bound to be the occasional bargains to be had. I think that picking up a nice C4S for £13k is complete fantasy, depending on the perception of what 'nice' is.


No at all, there was one on eBay a few weeks ago, I was going to buy it but another buyer was in first. You snooze you loose etc. The car had a load of work done and was very clean. It's only thing I suppose was the red/maroon interior. Not to everybody taste I suppose. The buyer said it was cheap because he actually wanted it sold. Not sat there for 9 months with a stream of time wasters coming to tyre kick. Unfortunately sometimes selling a 911 can be a pain in the arse due to certain "enthusiasts" being completely unrealistic and quite frankly absolute *****. Anyway back on thread
 
  
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MEames
Newbie


Joined: 11 Apr 2019
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been watching 996's and 997's for some time trying to decide which one my admittedly limited budget would be best spent on... and in short I think the answer is no unless priced aggressively or a very fine example.

I got worried that prices were going to run from me away a few years ago but needn't have - 996's I've been watching are either dropping in price or sitting on sale for long periods of time and I've seen 997's dipping under £15k of late and these on the whole seem to be better looked after and certainly probably a more desirable vehicle for the market in general.

Ultimately I think they all have a more to go but are getting close to levelling out in terms of pricing for the foreseeable - taking the numbers for sale on here as a general overview you have twice as many 997's for sale which makes sense as production numbers were significantly up during this time (particularly .1 variants before the financial crash) and is going to have an effect.

Sure a nice Manual 996.1 Coupe with cable throttle or a C4S will always be a good choice for an enthusiast and perhaps they will attract a limited group of buyers willing to look at the paperwork in detail when assessing the vehicles value and pay accordingly - but when used as they should the mileages will creep up year on year and it appears that 100,000 miles is a big hurdle for the 911 / sports car market in general.

Add in the risk that dealers need to run to retail and warranty these (engine rebuilds, ageing components and corrosion starting) and I think the 'trade / private' values are going to settle well under £10k for most examples.

The effect of the 992 generation launch will push down 991.1 vehicles into 997.2 territory and compress all the others in the next few years before you even think about the social pressure of running a high C02 output car with an engine close to 3 times the size of what most people deem acceptable... particularly when most modern hot hatches and ev's can outperform them with half the running costs.

Beyond the next 5-10 years I really don't think that there is any way to predict what the prices will be like apart from that they're going to get more and more affordable, less desirable and a more niche choice in the light of the 'electric revolution' that the government and manufacturers are gearing up for with haste.
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 325



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it also depends on whether you want to think about buying or actually buy.
One could spend the next year pondering and waiting for prices to come your way, or you could be 'brave' and go for it.
This is what makes discussions like this worthwhile, because the majority of us have actually bought one rather than just talked about it.
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Counter Of Beans
Montreal


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 527
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:

It's interesting hearing the views of recent entrants to the world of 911s.
For the record all variants of the 996 actually depreciated to their lowest value in 2013 and have slowly risen back to where they are now.
Asking prices for Carreras are about the same now as they were in 2011.


Right, so the post-crash (2008) years saw values fall. Then we had economic recovery, now normal service has been resumed and depreciation will start to reduce values again. That's how I read it, anyway. But I guess none of us can really be certain.
Perhaps Porsche owners dwell too much on values - guilty as charged!
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Paynewright
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 17 Apr 2018
Posts: 262
Location: Nr Lutterworth Leics


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lost about £24k in depreciation in 6 years on two new cars - just puts it into perspective.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16462
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
T8 wrote:


It's interesting hearing the views of recent entrants to the world of 911s.

For the record all variants of the 996 actually depreciated to their lowest value in 2013 and have slowly risen back to where they are now.

Asking prices for Carreras are about the same now as they were in 2011.



Right, so the post-crash (2008) years saw values fall. Then we had economic recovery, now normal service has been resumed and depreciation will start to reduce values again. That's how I read it, anyway.



That's not quite how I meant it.

(i.e) It seems to be more the case that:

(1) Values of 911s fall as part of the natural depreciation process until they hit rock-bottom. This process takes longer than for mainstream cars and rock-bottom values, as a % of what the car cost new, tend to be higher.

(2) After a little while potential 911 buyers wake up to how those values compare to newer models and they become more sought after.

(3) At that point cars start to go back up in value.

All three of these steps have already occurred with both the 996 and the 997. For a couple of years asking prices for all pretty much stabilised. The recent fall from those values has been more to do with the economic uncertainty that Brexit brought and will probably be temporary.
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 325



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, this was my searching/buying experience that has some relevance when discussing values.
Having sold my 964 in early 2017 I was given the impression that I'd pick up a nice manual 996c2 coupe for a pittance. £10-£12k no problem.
That just wasn't the case and still isn't. Anything in that price bracket was well used and pretty tired.
Anything even remotely decent was/is £16-£18k.
I bought from an enthusiast who had cherished the car for 10 years and so paid extra accordingly.
Just my 2p. Smile
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wasz
Paul Ricard


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 3079


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine has had loads of enquiries, and got 2 solid viewings this weekend, I'm expecting it to go.

Maybe it's too cheap?
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4713
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
Mine has had loads of enquiries, and got 2 solid viewings this weekend, I'm expecting it to go.

Maybe it's too cheap?

In my view it will only be cheap when it’s sold
 
  
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HSC911
Dijon


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 7320
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paynewright wrote:
I lost about £24k in depreciation in 6 years on two new cars - just puts it into perspective.


That must have been a Wright Payne Floor Floor Floor



kas750 wrote:
In my view it will only be cheap when it’s sold


Yeah

Thumb
 
  
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eabeukes
Monza


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 191
Location: Aylesbury

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a small update - I managed to put my eyes back into their sockets after the quote from a local independant specialist nearly killed me, and have found a resolution that her indoors is also agreed to (which does not involve a sale). I'm heading north of 146k miles anyway so nobody will buy mine anyway as its due to melt real soon now!
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martin t
Newbie


Joined: 03 Jan 2020
Posts: 11



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my C4s cab in November and was very happy with the price I paid.

The seller had been messed about for the preceeding 3 weeks with time wasters and no one turning up to view.

Mine has had the IMS and RMS replaced less than a year ago by a Porsche specialist and the auto box has been re built with a new torque converter. So with that and a large folder or recent works I took the view to pay a bit more in the knowledge that at least those items will not need doing and all i really want to do is drive and enjoy my new car.

I actually wanted to buy a 996 Turbo but could not find a nice one for a reasonable price, but if one turns up and i go for it then I have a rather nice car to pass on etc.
 
  
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Marky911
Sepang


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2911



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HSC911 wrote:
Paynewright wrote:
I lost about £24k in depreciation in 6 years on two new cars - just puts it into perspective.


That must have been a Wright Payne Floor Floor Floor



Grin
 
  
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Marky911
Sepang


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2911



PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g911omr wrote:
For what it's worth, this was my searching/buying experience that has some relevance when discussing values.
Having sold my 964 in early 2017 I was given the impression that I'd pick up a nice manual 996c2 coupe for a pittance. £10-£12k no problem.
That just wasn't the case and still isn't. Anything in that price bracket was well used and pretty tired.
Anything even remotely decent was/is £16-£18k.
I bought from an enthusiast who had cherished the car for 10 years and so paid extra accordingly.
Just my 2p. Smile



I’m with you 100%.

No offence to anyone that’s contributed but you always get the folk who haven’t bought yet, talking the market down and the enthusiasts possibly talking the market up.
Plus, and this is the big factor, we all have different standards. I’m a realistic buyer and seller. I don’t expect any used car to be perfect, especially a 20 year old 911, so I’ll buy a decent straight one that’s stacks up on paper with decent miles. I’ll then work through it to make it very good.

When I sell I never try it on and I just try and be realistic. Plus when I want to move on I’m impatient and just want it gone.

The market has cooled but it’s just seasonal. Always is. Who is looking for a toy just after Xmas when it’s miserable and freezing cold.
That’s why I’m saying if you don’t need to sell, don’t. Wait for the first nice bank holiday in spring when all the toys come out and folk starting thinking “Ooh I fancy one of those this year!”

I don’t think the market is doomed especially for a 996 in a certain spec, such as early C2 or mint C4S. It’s just winter.
Plus let’s face it, even if you’re worried about values, if a £60k GT3 loses £10k, a nice £18k C2 will barely lose £2k or £3k. You’ll be pumping way more than that into one anyway.

As for a nice C4S for £13k?? Absolutely dreaming. I guarantee I’d have found some big issues with that. Either huge gaps in its maintenance, hidden faults or just not upto my standards. And I bet you it was Tiptronic.

If you spot anymore, stick me down for 2. One for me and one for the wife. Wink

£13k.... Floor
 
  
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