Hartech 3.9 vs GT3

With Ohlins on my 997 C2S recently fitted - with complete rebuild of arms etc, and ride heights changed to 105mm front, 133 rear (GT3 is 108/133) - and having test driven a 991.2 GT3 on a track, back-to-back with my own car, the handling is not far off, although GT3 still felt better.

The gear changes on the GT3 cannot be matched, even though mine is 6-speed also with short shift, the GT3 felt like a rifle.

GT3 sounds awesome - cannot be matched.

The GT3 engine revs more freely, feels pokey. There is so much power available. Even upto 5k revs it revs more freely. But it is still close to my 997. After 5k revs, the engine cannot be matched, it just has another level of power.

The problem I have, on the road, my 997 is more or less the limit at 5k revs, before you have to change gear - there just isn't enough road. So when would you actually drive the GT3 in higher revs?

It kind of felt the GT3 on the road, you wouldn't even get out of 2nd gear. On my 997 I can use 3rd,4th gear.

If Hartech were to produce a 4.0L, where the engine felt pokey and free-er revving, with more power sub 5k, that would be a great compromise.

GT3 991.2 £130k-£170k (for Touring pack - I could not live with that spoiler!) vs 997 £25k (with Ohlins) + £15k Hartech engine would make a lot of sense to me.

I find it interesting that after 40 years of trying to explain the influence of torque and not bhp for drivability and acceleration, the first 16 valve 1.9 Peugeot and VW GT2's and the 994 S with more bhp at higher revs were found to perform no better than the 8 valve versions with lower peak bhp, then low pressure turbo diesels were found to accelerate very quickly and be great as a general all round driver and finally the introduction of electric cars with low peak bhp but huge torque low down are performing very well (and small domestic versions in the recent TV test were raced round Birmingham City centre track faster than pure sports cars they were up against).

I have explained a lot more about this in our report on bigger engines (available from Sharon @[email protected]) because what they do is BOTH increase mid range torque (by about twice the capacity increase) and peak bhp (by about the capacity increase) and create a car much easier to drive as well as faster.

Of course if what you want is basically a race car on the road, a GT3 is a great car but expensive and as most road time is spent unable to exploit that performance (as rightly pointed out by the last contributor) to have something easier to drive, faster to accelerate and without any need to drop gears and rev the nuts off it - can be a welcome compromise.

For any seriously interested in a conversion we have several different models available for private test by arrangement - just contact me - but I can only spare the time to discuss in detail with those who have already read that report (so I don't have to waste valuable time going over the very same things again and again - sorry).

Baz Hartech Automotive [email protected]

Phil 997 said:

I agree with the guys who enjoy modding and seeing what does or doesn't work its part of the fun of ownership and it becomes your interest/hobby and heres my man maths and I am going to use a Dammit type theory as the example as he's spent a lot on his Carrera.

1/you buy a Carrera 15k intend to own it for 10 years plus you then spend 40k enjoying modding it as this is your interest total outlay 55k future value 22k loss 33k

2/ you buy a Carrera 15k spend nothing on it and decide to play golf as your interest/hobby over 10 years at 3k pa aprox
total outlay 45k future value 10k loss 35k

I cant make the owning a GT3 comparison as I genuinely dont know what costs over 10 years would be to own one and maintain it well.

I am only making this example to highlight that if modding you car is your hobby then that has a value as you would spend money on any other hobby and its not about making money but its about the fun of seeing what things do.

:thumb:

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This!

996 & GT3 comparison:

https://youtu.be/vUKj0TGOyRQ

Marky911 said:

Jesus Neil, you've got over £60k in a 996 cabriolet?

If it sold for £22k-£25k you'd be £40k down. Wowzers. I thought I'd wasted a bit losing £10k on my C2.

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I know we all have our own personal journeys on our Pork; some just want to drive a porker for a short time - an itch to scratch, while others have a long term love affair with our cars. I loved reading what Neil's done to his car and, while I wont have stuck £60k in to my C4S in the same way that he's done, I can see it getting that way over time.

In the next few years mine will need a rebuild - possibly a supercharger, a new exhaust and down pipes, it will need the canvass replacing on the roof, I love the headlights thread that's going right now - they'll get upgraded, the interior will have money spent on it, i'm planning to upgrade the ICE and dashcam, the suspension will be kept fresh and then it will need a full respray. Add a personal plate next year, too, and i'm well through £50k when i add the original cost of the car (possibly even £60k).

But, when that's all done, while she'll still be an almost 20yr old car, she'll be as good as new and a million times better than a new Mondeo, and I genuinely cannot see circumstances where i'll want to sell her...

Maybe i'm on my own here but I'd prefer my C4S, with a great engine and suspension, a rag top and radio PSE than a GT3. :grin:


Osh

NXI20 said:

MisterCorn said:

On the other hand, that might just be me :?:

MC

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It's not just you.

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:thumb:

[/quote]

Maybe i'm on my own here but I'd prefer my C4S, with a great engine and suspension, a rag top and radio PSE than a GT3. :grin:


Osh[/quote]

Not all Alone!

NXI20 said:

The numbers on that particular car simply don't stack up with the whole conversion including donor approaching £80K iirc and they haven't touched the engine internals?? It's more a demonstration of all their bolt-ons in one car. To try to suggest that spending more on that car than a sorted GT3 is a good idea doesn't really stand up to any serious scrutiny. The bath you'd take on resale alone would be enough reason not to do it.

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According to the ad https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/vehicle/996-csr-evo/ where that car is for sale it has had extensive engine work. £100k+ build cost...

To spend GT3++ money on a C2 to make it like a GT3 seems odd unless as you say its a showcase of what RPM can do (and lordy they must be expensive... even allowing £15k for a donor car, £25k for an engine rebuild with special components, £10k for a respray, £10k for suspension work I'm £40k short...).

Better to create something unique... cabrio, Targa, widebody etc with enhanced performance but day to day usability.

TV8 said:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

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Tend to agree. But as others have said many will perform this upgrade as a keeper. Costs will differentiate over time. Besides there are a few interesting air-cooled and front engined Porsche variants still out there. The 944T is an extremely tunable car for instance.

Hi all, resurrecting this thread. I bit the bullet and my car is at Hartech currently having the 3.9 conversion.

I spoke to Grant a couple of times and his Knowledge and enthusiasm is first class. I dropped of the car and had a tour of Hartech's facilities, its the perfect place! Its an engineering shop, thats more focussed on the process and ability to get it done.

I'm looking forward to getting my car back, also for me having the confidence that the Engine should be bulletproof. I have a road trip planned later in the year and was concerned that if it let go it could have the potential to ruin a dream road trip.

I had the tell tail sooted tailpipe and a "ticking" when warm, Grant confirmed that cyl 5&6 both had scoring. He had concerns about crank bearing wear at my mileage.

This car for me is a keeper and will be enjoyed for many years, when i have saved up enough i will get the bodywork tickled up for stone chips and i will sort out the other bits as and when.

in this market GT3s and other GT supercars are dropping fast. we could see sub 45k 996s soon. lot of car for the money

if you want to create sth unique to you then go for it and at least you know and have the security of the hartech build.

Ashgood sold a clubsport 997 GT3 for under 60k recently.

not sure boggo carreras are falling as fast as cheaper anyway and at bottom of the market?

I think we'll see some interesting patterns - if you have a 996 GT3 on finance, at £800/month and abruptly you have nothing coming in then you'll want to move it sharpish, whilst it will still pay the finance off.

If you've got a C2 that's paid for, you may need to move it to pay other bills, but it in itself doesn't represent a fixed, high, recurrent cost.

nickyg63 said:

Hi all, resurrecting this thread. I bit the bullet and my car is at Hartech currently having the 3.9 conversion.

I spoke to Grant a couple of times and his Knowledge and enthusiasm is first class. I dropped of the car and had a tour of Hartech's facilities, its the perfect place! Its an engineering shop, thats more focussed on the process and ability to get it done.

I'm looking forward to getting my car back, also for me having the confidence that the Engine should be bulletproof. I have a road trip planned later in the year and was concerned that if it let go it could have the potential to ruin a dream road trip.

I had the tell tail sooted tailpipe and a "ticking" when warm, Grant confirmed that cyl 5&6 both had scoring. He had concerns about crank bearing wear at my mileage.

This car for me is a keeper and will be enjoyed for many years, when i have saved up enough i will get the bodywork tickled up for stone chips and i will sort out the other bits as and when.

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Have you had the car back now?

What mileage was the car on, and did it have crank bearing wear?

All the best

Poker2009 said:

nickyg63 said:

Hi all, resurrecting this thread. I bit the bullet and my car is at Hartech currently having the 3.9 conversion.

I spoke to Grant a couple of times and his Knowledge and enthusiasm is first class. I dropped of the car and had a tour of Hartech's facilities, its the perfect place! Its an engineering shop, thats more focussed on the process and ability to get it done.

I'm looking forward to getting my car back, also for me having the confidence that the Engine should be bulletproof. I have a road trip planned later in the year and was concerned that if it let go it could have the potential to ruin a dream road trip.

I had the tell tail sooted tailpipe and a "ticking" when warm, Grant confirmed that cyl 5&6 both had scoring. He had concerns about crank bearing wear at my mileage.

This car for me is a keeper and will be enjoyed for many years, when i have saved up enough i will get the bodywork tickled up for stone chips and i will sort out the other bits as and when.

Click to expand...

Have you had the car back now?

What mileage was the car on, and did it have crank bearing wear?

All the best

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Hi, I have had the car back for about 6 weeks now. I have done 1000 miles in running it in, the mileage was 143911 and yes the bearings were worn. I think that all m96 engines are going to show crank bearing wear around 100k, plus i had bore scoring on cyl 5&6.

thanks Nick

That's good going on the original engine.
Enjoy it!