Hartech 3.9 vs GT3

Cunno said:

I know the Hartech engine build is normally a repair solution or a future proofing thing and now that a 3.9 is available it does sound like a no brainier. So has anyone dyno one yet, be very interested to here what they are producing.

Standard 3.6 produces 320bhp and 275 torque with the capacity increase where are they now 350 Bhp and 300 torque?

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Based on a 3.7 I would say a 3.9 would be circa 345bhp & 310 ft/lbs.

996.2 GT3's are renowned for over performing, most dynoing at circa 390bhp.

996 Gt3 gen 2 comes standard with 380 Bhp and 275 torque so they would be close as the GT3 has longer gearing.

But Gt3's aren't about out right pace, it's a combination of power, grip and balance that makes them special. All of which can be copied or improved on depending on your required usage, there are some nice hot rods out there :thumb:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

TV8 said:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

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Yes, a mod you do for yourself, not to sell the car.

MC

MisterCorn said:

TV8 said:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

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Yes, a mod you do for yourself, not to sell the car.

MC

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So, assuming you needed a rebuild, do you think for better resale prospects as and when it's better to stick to standard spec?

Robertb said:

MisterCorn said:

TV8 said:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

Click to expand...

Yes, a mod you do for yourself, not to sell the car.

MC

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So, assuming you needed a rebuild, do you think for better resale prospects as and when it's better to stick to standard spec?

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I think he's trying to say low mileage and not needing a rebuild would probably be preferable to most people, despite that not being the best option in reality to avoid conversions like this:

Work mate: Nice car, how many miles?
You: engine was rebuilt 5k miles ago
Work mate: how many miles though
You: 120k miles.
Work mate: Oh err I see, good luck with that.

Some people are odd...

DarthFaker said:

Robertb said:

MisterCorn said:

TV8 said:

At the risk of being a kill joy, based on my personal experience, the oversize rebuilt engine, with lots more power bespoke parts is the car that everyone wants on a forum but doesn't actually want to buy when you come to sell.

Sure, you can get lucky when you come to sell but You have to prepare for a lack of enthusiasm from real buyers.

To balance that, when you get a nice open road you will always be glad that you have up-graded!

Click to expand...

Yes, a mod you do for yourself, not to sell the car.

MC

Click to expand...

So, assuming you needed a rebuild, do you think for better resale prospects as and when it's better to stick to standard spec?

Click to expand...

I think he's trying to say low mileage and not needing a rebuild would probably be preferable to most people, despite that not being the best option in reality to avoid conversions like this:

Work mate: Nice car, how many miles?
You: engine was rebuilt 5k miles ago
Work mate: how many miles though
You: 120k miles.
Work mate: Oh err I see, good luck with that.

Some people are odd...

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Yeah i get you, we are infatuated with mileage here in the UK! I love to read stories where people have done hundreds of thousands of miles in their cars.

So someone would rather pay a premium for a 60k car that possible will need a rebuild, rather than a 120k thats had a real nice rebuild that enhances the car.

My boss bought one of our training cars, it was a 6yr old Leon with 600 miles and that was all he could think about, the fact that it was virtually new! never been serviced and driven to and from a warehouse for 6yrs!

Strange how we rationalise car buying really, i bought a 911 with 143k the previous guy had driven 90k in 6yrs and apart from chips the car mechanically is amazing. My work golf is just over 2yrs old and has 100k on it, i probably wouldn't use the same thinking process with that.

strange really...

My comment was more relating to a pre-emptive rebuild. If the engine needs a rebuild you won't have any choice in the matter. You won't sell a car with a damaged engine except for peanuts. However to do a rebuild pre-emptively, which I think is a good idea at 80-100k miles, it would only be done on the basis that the car was going to be a keeper, or that the owner wanted a performance increase. If it was my car, it was on 80k, and I had the money spare, then I would probably do a rebuild. If I had any thoughts of selling in the next few years I would save my money and keep my fingers crossed, on the basis that a car with 100k miles on the original engine is worth a bit less than a car with a fresh engine, but will have cost a lot less.

MC

nickyg63 said:

peterg1955 said:

If you dont mind asking how much to get the 3.9??

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My car is being collected in a couple of weeks to go up to Hartech for a full rebuild including capacity increase from 3.6 to 3.9 as to my mind it's a no brainer while the engine is apart for everything anyway.

The cost for that is £13.2k inc vat plus any additional work found necessary whilst it is being done. I believe the separate cost for the capacity increase is approx. £2k inc vat of that total.

There is nothing obviously wrong with my engine currently although the left exhaust tip is slightly sootier than the right but I figured whilst I have the money available I'd rather get it all done and be able to enjoy it knowing that all the usual major failures were future proofed (fingers crossed).

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Awesome, will be great to hear what you think about the conversion

Did you have a long wait time to get it in?

Keep us posted on the progress, thanks for the reply!

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I rang Grant at the beginning of December but because of Christmas etc we decided to leave collection until mid-Jan. He said the car will be away for "around 6-8 weeks" but I don't really need it until May so that's not a problem. I know someone who had the same work done nearly 2 years ago and it took 4 months but because his was an early oversize conversion they probably wanted to ensure everything was perfect before releasing it to him.

peterg1955 said:

nickyg63 said:

peterg1955 said:

If you dont mind asking how much to get the 3.9??

Click to expand...

My car is being collected in a couple of weeks to go up to Hartech for a full rebuild including capacity increase from 3.6 to 3.9 as to my mind it's a no brainer while the engine is apart for everything anyway.

The cost for that is £13.2k inc vat plus any additional work found necessary whilst it is being done. I believe the separate cost for the capacity increase is approx. £2k inc vat of that total.

There is nothing obviously wrong with my engine currently although the left exhaust tip is slightly sootier than the right but I figured whilst I have the money available I'd rather get it all done and be able to enjoy it knowing that all the usual major failures were future proofed (fingers crossed).

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Awesome, will be great to hear what you think about the conversion

Did you have a long wait time to get it in?

Keep us posted on the progress, thanks for the reply!

Click to expand...

I rang Grant at the beginning of December but because of Christmas etc we decided to leave collection until mid-Jan. He said the car will be away for "around 6-8 weeks" but I don't really need it until May so that's not a problem. I know someone who had the same work done nearly 2 years ago and it took 4 months but because his was an early oversize conversion they probably wanted to ensure everything was perfect before releasing it to him.

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Do you get any build pics or anything to see the progress??

nickyg63 said:

Do you get any build pics or anything to see the progress??

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Not sure yet, I guess they will let me know any extra work that's needed (brake line over gearbox etc), so I may only get pics of any bad stuff...

Before I organised the rebuild I emailed Hartech and got Baz's M96/M97 engine problems research document and the oversize engine document (they run to about 250 pages in total) so I could get the fullest idea of what is involved, there are plenty of pics of the new reinforced liners and larger IMS etc in those and also on their website. You just have to sign and return an NDA before they get sent to you for obvious reasons.

My thoughts -

More or less agree with all the has been said on the mindset of buyers...

On my experience - and I may have said this already in some other thread - I deliberated on the 3.9 upgrade for a couple of weeks. Needed permission from wife as we have a small herd of kids - 5 to be precise - but that is another tale of woe. You know your dignity is gone when you are on the throne with a kid on your knee, another standing beside you, another sitting on the ground looking at you and a fourth knocking on the door to get in...

Any, back to 3.9s... if I'm going to spend a shed load of cash, I want it to be better than before. Mine was fully rebuilt at 114k miles so was still completely fresh when I bought it at 123k. It dropped the valve seat on me at 127k. So performance wasn't going to be improved by another rebuild. Hence spending a bit extra on the 3.9 for a much improved car. And although I'm still running it in, I am delighted I chose the upgrade. The power is fantastic and easy to use. So much grunt- 450nm. More torque than a 997.2 GT3. Less BHP than it, but at 353, I'm happy.

I would reccommend the upgrade if you can afford it.

Do I think my car is worth more - we'll I have insured it for more, but would the potential buyer pay more? I would advertise it at a higher price than a non upgraded engine and let the market decide. But I wouldn't expect to get my investment back. However, I do think that in the future when more 996s have been scrapped, that a discerning buyer will put value on a Hartech or equal quality rebuild and that a 3.9 wil be desirable.

Or I could be completely wrong!

450nm? that's 331 ft/lb... I'm looking forward to getting mine back even more now :thumbs:

3rd and 4th gears are just a joy now!

I forgot to mention that I had other work done on the car which also enhances the driving experience -

New Clutch and flywheel
New Clutch pedal assist spring
New gear shift cables
New front gear box mount
New rear arb and bushes. All other suspension was replaced in 2018 with Hartech arms x 14

They make a huge difference and had they not been done, especially the clutch pedal assist spring - the car wouldn't have felt as 'new" to me.

Other items include

Expansion bottle
Rear brake pipe over gear box
Refurb started motor
Cleaning and waxing of the body over the gear box etc

My car is what I would call 'zero timed" in that all maintenance items have been done in the last 18 months. I'm not bothered by what the ODO says. I wasn't bothered by it when buying.

And yes I am broke financially, but I'm OK with that. I could have drank or smoked the same amount of money :thumbs:

nickyg63 said:

Thanks for the reply, so a £30k sorted 996 vs a bottom end £50k GT3.

Good man maths to me.

Would be good to get a video of yours or a long term test write up??

Cheers again!
Nick

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I'm not sure the man maths really does stack up when you consider a 996 turbo is around the £30k mark these days...