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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 677



PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maldren wrote:
I have no intention of following this but it's an excellent post, great reading.
many thanks.
Mike


Agreed. Thumb
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DarthFaker
Newbie


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 27
Location: Brighton, UK


PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamie Summers wrote:
I appreciate it's not quite comparing apples with apples, but I have the original Cayman "RS" development car that Autofarm produced about 10 years ago.

It started life as a regular 987.1 S ie the M97 3.4L lump. Autofarm subjected this to one of their 3.7L Silsleeve engine conversions. In addition to many of the same bits and pieces that Hartech do as standard, Autofarm also fitted the Shrick cams, IPD plenum GT3 throttle body and a custom carbonfibre airbox. It also has stainless decat headers and Miltek back section (also decat).

The engine was dyno-mapped by the now departed Bob Watson and showed 367bhp, backed up by a dyno print from a different dyno a couple of years later showing a very similar number.

The power delivery is very linear with strong low-down torque. Getting the thing to cool properly has been the major challenge, but I think that is as much to do with the mid-engined lay out as the engine itself. I have now also gone down the line of fitting TTP Oilsafer pumps on both banks of heads together with an additional external oilcooler, deep baffled sump and larger 997 water/oil heat exchanger, low temp therm, lightweight clutch and flywheel and under drive pulley.

I think there is still more on the table with a bit more dyno time. Parr had it on their dyno relatively recently and commented that the map was fairly basic and could be improved.

Clearly comparisons with a Hartech M96 3.7 are not entirely fair, but what is interesting is that even with many of the bolt-on "performance" mods eg plenum, throttle body and airbox, which the OP found to be power-reducing, there is still a material improvement in power output over the Hartech M96, which presumably must come largely down to the cams and exhaust ???


From what I gathered from reading their information on their oversized engines, they've tried to build a torque monster rather than a peak HP engine. But don't quote me on this.
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15570
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont know how I missed this thread before but now just read it in full , very very interesting and I found similar with Hartech and Wayne from Chipwizards regarding bolt on's that dont do what they say on the tin . Wayne left my IPD but removed the Fabspeed carbon twin cone induction and replaced it with my stock airbox and BMC filters as the fabspeed induction actually reduced the BHP and power curve. mine is a 997.2 so may have different characteristics to the 996.2 and I accept that Porsche had already tweaked some of the extra BHP between the 96.2 and 97.2 ,I did the same and had assumed some loss in power from new despite the Hartech rebuild so was assuming if 385bhp from factory 10 years later 370/375bhp maybe , so by the time Wayne had finished it was just over 400bhp so realistically 25/30bhp gains from Cargraphic full exhaust with 200 cell cats , IPD plenum , BMC filters and a good solid Chipwizards remap also Wayne got a really nice power curve and no flat spots.
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dc2100k
Newbie


Joined: 28 Oct 2019
Posts: 48



PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp1ke wrote:
For completeness I'll add the graph from the original Porsche hardback catalogue for the stock 3.6 as a comparison to the one Dammit shared for the stock 3.4.


This graph makes for interesting reading, thanks. It really stands out how much extra torque the 3.6 M96 makes and how much earlier in the rev range. It makes around 273ft/lb of torque at 4250rpm, as opposed to NedHan's 3.4 dyno run shown which makes max 239lb/ft, but more critically at 5734rpm.

Also if you look at the 3.6 graph it makes max power at 6800rpm but there is a broad plateau of power around 320bhp from 6000rpm to 7200rpm, whilst the torque drops off after 6000rpm. I have found in my limited time with my C2 so far that this reflects the real world characteristics of the car where it builds speed very fast between 4000-6000rpm and increase in power delivery tapers off slightly at the very top end. Is this the experience of other 3.6 owners - ie. upshifting at 6000-6500rpm rather than 7000rpm for best usage of the engine? I would expect the 3.4 maybe not to pull as hard but to want to rev out to the limiter a bit more.
 
  
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 677



PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dc2100k wrote:
sp1ke wrote:
For completeness I'll add the graph from the original Porsche hardback catalogue for the stock 3.6 as a comparison to the one Dammit shared for the stock 3.4.


This graph makes for interesting reading, thanks. It really stands out how much extra torque the 3.6 M96 makes and how much earlier in the rev range. It makes around 273ft/lb of torque at 4250rpm, as opposed to NedHan's 3.4 dyno run shown which makes max 239lb/ft, but more critically at 5734rpm.

Also if you look at the 3.6 graph it makes max power at 6800rpm but there is a broad plateau of power around 320bhp from 6000rpm to 7200rpm, whilst the torque drops off after 6000rpm. I have found in my limited time with my C2 so far that this reflects the real world characteristics of the car where it builds speed very fast between 4000-6000rpm and increase in power delivery tapers off slightly at the very top end. Is this the experience of other 3.6 owners - ie. upshifting at 6000-6500rpm rather than 7000rpm for best usage of the engine? I would expect the 3.4 maybe not to pull as hard but to want to rev out to the limiter a bit more.


What is the standard figures for a 3.4? I have it in my head it about 254lb torque and 296 hp. They’re supposed to average 26-270hp on the dyno these days for a standard car so I was very happy with the hp figures I got. My torques obviously down but I was putting that down to the cats. Everyone says that they’ll loose torque with aftermarket cats or decats which dosnt really make any sense to me. Either way, an extra 30-40lb goes a massive way to how the car will drive. Much more than a lot of people would realise.
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dc2100k
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Joined: 28 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ned, I think the factory figures for the 3.4 are 257ft/lb at 4600rpm, but the curve is more of a peak at this value sloping away above and below. The 3.6 has a broad shelf near max torque from 3800rpm to 6100rpm. I took the car out again this morning for a spirited run through the Scottish Borders in the warmer, drier conditions and actually - contrary to my previous statement - it pulls hard right to the redline. My tendency is to shift up at 6500-6700 simply because I am unfamiliar with the 6MT box in the car and the throw seems a bit long (and dare I say, imprecise!?) for my liking. If you shift a bit earlier (6000-6500rpm) it gets you back into that really strong mid-range punch which almost feels like it's got a light-pressure turbo. This is a certainly a good way to make progress in any gear/situation but maybe not quite as characterful as the 3.4?

BTW I think you can be amazed at your dyno figures tbh. I bet your car flies if you keep it in the power band. Have you weighed it recently?
 
  
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fot0
Newbie


Joined: 03 Apr 2018
Posts: 35
Location: Thames Valley


PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread. I have just started a similar project on a 2nd engine. I am still at the research stage and collating material and figures on where to go. Have the paper written by Barry at Hartec on oversizing and will likely take this route. My aim is not to build a track focused car, but to build some reliability in to the M96 and enjoy the car for the next decade or so on road trips & the odd track.

Thanks for sharing your figures as this at least seems testing various setups shows pro/cons. Whilst many knock the m96, it shows that Porsche had spent some time developing the basic package and 'bolt-on' mods hinder performance - unless of course you have very deep pockets.
 
  
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 677



PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dc2100k wrote:
Hi Ned, I think the factory figures for the 3.4 are 257ft/lb at 4600rpm, but the curve is more of a peak at this value sloping away above and below. The 3.6 has a broad shelf near max torque from 3800rpm to 6100rpm. I took the car out again this morning for a spirited run through the Scottish Borders in the warmer, drier conditions and actually - contrary to my previous statement - it pulls hard right to the redline. My tendency is to shift up at 6500-6700 simply because I am unfamiliar with the 6MT box in the car and the throw seems a bit long (and dare I say, imprecise!?) for my liking. If you shift a bit earlier (6000-6500rpm) it gets you back into that really strong mid-range punch which almost feels like it's got a light-pressure turbo. This is a certainly a good way to make progress in any gear/situation but maybe not quite as characterful as the 3.4?

BTW I think you can be amazed at your dyno figures tbh. I bet your car flies if you keep it in the power band. Have you weighed it recently?


I hadn’t looked much at the curve compared to a standard one tbh. I must do that. This car is my only experience of a 911 and the exhaust was on it when I bought it so I can’t compare how it is to a standard one.

I’m on a little weight saving mission atm but it’s not going to be too drastic
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 677



PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crash can you pm me a number about the flywheel? For some reason my messages aren’t sending
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MaxA
Albert Park


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 1672
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great thread (maybe some more pictures please?). How did you lose 100kg from the interior? I reckon that 350bhp from the 3.4 is a great effort. Thumb

It seems to me that a lot of the real action and good ideas these days is in the 996 arena, whereas people are scared of driving (let alone modifying) their 997s (despite Phil997s best efforts!) and are all just existing on a scale that starts with worried and goes to paranoid. Wink
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