993 2S at Williams Crawford

If I was spending £60k - £90k on a 993 at a specialist like WC or JZM then I'd want to know that the "under the skin" jobs had been done - things like refurbed distributors, HT leads, exhaust heatshields, windscreen scuttle rust, engine mounts, clutch and so on.
Perhaps the car at WC has had all that done, perhaps it hasn't. If it hasn't then it's poor value in my opinion.

I'm toying the the prospect of selling mine. Not sure I will ever come close to the level of enjoyment I've had from it driving it across America. Will see how I feel in a few months. :?:

I'm uncertain as to the future of classics with ICE's given the way the electric cars are being pushed on us all.............

AP90 said:

I'm uncertain as to the future of classics with ICE's given the way the electric cars are being pushed on us all.............

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Smoke and mirrors chum. It's a long way off and far enough into the long grass. UK will never have the infrastructure to maintain a high number of EV. Even now there are I believe 4 different types of plugs, 4 x different companies running various charging stations all requiring different registration etc and then a lot seem to be occupied all day by workers/shop staff or vandalised :roll:

For me the 964 was the 'last of the traditional styled air-cooled 911" :grin:

Zingari said:

jonttt said:

:hand: 993's are relatively cheap classic cars to maintain at this end of the classic car market. <£5k at most and you can get suspension, scuttle and chassis legs sorted (if they are indeed required, most scuttles have been done by now).

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They're even cheaper to run if you don't drive them and put them in a carcoon
:roll:

jonttt said:

As stated in other threads there are always cars that stick and give ammunition for the doomsayers that they are not selling, you never here of the ones that are for sale and sell quickly, like the recent C4S with average miles that went for >£100k

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I'd call custard on that. But then again there are those for who money is no object and is happy to write off the over-inflated premium. If he's on here I've got a lighthly used Elephant's Blurter for sale :thumb:

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https://www.chappellsportscars.com/used-cars/porsche-911-993-3-6-c4s-aerokit-coupe/

Sold quickly, sticker price was £109,995 :bandit:

^^^^Smoke and mirrors. Basic seats with 'John Major' grey interior in a silver car :what:

Luddite said:

C4 silver, I wonder if you would be buying into an ICE classic today with the hope of real returns in ten years when you might intend to sell it for real profit.. :?:

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Who knows, I hadn't intended buying into an ICE classic for real returns or any other, and in the 90's I can only admit to buying what I wanted and not what every one else liked. it just happened. I was left some money by a relative in the late 90's that I put into property and cars, not for profit, for enjoyment. I bought an immaculate E30 M3 when nobody wanted LHD cars and kept it 15 years before selling it along with an Integrale Evo that I also bought because I liked it. Like I said no one wanted left hookers at that time so I bought a Sport Quattro for my own enjoyment and sold that at auction to a private collector in the states.

I'm currently sat on an RS2 in Silver with low miles and another integrale.
Not for me for my son.

Every time I've bought a car I've been told I'd loose money, that the sky would fall in and the engine would blow up ! that there's either a recession looming a financial crisis and now Brexit, every time some one looses money on the other side of the swingometer there's some one making it,
Brexit will not be setting the economic horizon for the used classic motor vehicles, there are people sat waiting in the wings rubbing their hands together anticipating that the fall out that the doom mongering surrounding Armageddon will bring them their fortune.

They're not going to be rushing out to buy an e vehicle that will do 18 miles between charges. Any one who thinks they are must be crackers ?

C4Silver said:

Who knows, I hadn't intended buying into an ICE classic for real returns or any other, and in the 90's I can only admit to buying what I wanted and not what every one else liked. it just happened. I was left some money by a relative in the late 90's that I put into property and cars, not for profit, for enjoyment. I bought an immaculate E30 M3 when nobody wanted LHD cars and kept it 15 years before selling it along with an Integrale Evo that I also bought because I liked it. Like I said no one wanted left hookers at that time so I bought a Sport Quattro for my own enjoyment and sold that at auction to a private collector in the states.

I'm currently sat on an RS2 in Silver with low miles and another integrale.
Not for me for my son.

Every time I've bought a car I've been told I'd loose money, that the sky would fall in and the engine would blow up ! that there's either a recession looming a financial crisis and now Brexit, every time some one looses money on the other side of the swingometer there's some one making it,
Brexit will not be setting the economic horizon for the used classic motor vehicles, there are people sat waiting in the wings rubbing their hands together anticipating that the fall out that the doom mongering surrounding Armageddon will bring them their fortune.

They're not going to be rushing out to buy an e vehicle that will do 18 miles between charges. Any one who thinks they are must be crackers ?

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Some really nice cars past and present, proper iconic ones.

Thanks, I've been fortunate in owning some really nice genuine cars and continue to keep to the German brands for desirability. I've been lucky, at the time when I bought the M3 I had come to accept that I'd loose everything that I'd put in to it but knew I'd always get something back on the alloys..... that's how convinced I was that I'd bought a wrong un especially as it was left hooker. Same as the integrale. I bought one in yellow that was one of the last ones and it was worth very little in contrast to what it's worth now. Personally I think the likes of Piston Heads has set the market in terms of desirability, the more some one tells the masses that there's not much of anything left the more people have to have it, not just cars it's the same with everything.

This however is my first 911. I had always intended Buying a 993 but almost as soon as they were sold they were increasing in value right from the start, a mate of mine bought one brand new and still has it to this day, he's lived abroad for the last 20 years and it's literally not moved since !!!

I looked at a C4S at Specialist cars in Malton a month or so ago and and I am happy that I didn't buy that, over the past 25 years I've driven past this place when driving out over the N Yorks and never visited, typically the first time I do it's a house of cards. Fortunately the relevant searches brought me back here and I noticed that there were some discrepancies in their integrity.

So at least these warnings elsewhere on this forum do work,

C4Silver said:

Who knows, I hadn't intended buying into an ICE classic for real returns or any other, and in the 90's I can only admit to buying what I wanted and not what every one else liked. it just happened. I was left some money by a relative in the late 90's that I put into property and cars, not for profit, for enjoyment. I bought an immaculate E30 M3 when nobody wanted LHD cars and kept it 15 years before selling it along with an Integrale Evo that I also bought because I liked it. Like I said no one wanted left hookers at that time so I bought a Sport Quattro for my own enjoyment and sold that at auction to a private collector in the states.

I'm currently sat on an RS2 in Silver with low miles and another integrale.
Not for me for my son....

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&

&

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:worship:

Zingari said:

AP90 said:

I'm uncertain as to the future of classics with ICE's given the way the electric cars are being pushed on us all.............

Click to expand...

Smoke and mirrors chum. It's a long way off and far enough into the long grass. UK will never have the infrastructure to maintain a high number of EV. Even now there are I believe 4 different types of plugs, 4 x different companies running various charging stations all requiring different registration etc and then a lot seem to be occupied all day by workers/shop staff or vandalised :roll:

For me the 964 was the 'last of the traditional styled air-cooled 911" :grin:

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I really hope you're right about that, but with the current climate hysteria I'm not so sure.

I completely agree about the lack of infrastructure, but is is only distribution however there is a massive power deficit in this country, exacerbated by all the houses we keep being told we need to build.

I wish I'd kept my 964, ah well

Zingari, I admit to being dismayed when you typed that there may be at least four different types of charging plugs.... what a non-sense situation... !!! Aircraft fly all over the world and the needs they have for battery charging while on the ground are covered under International Standards Organisation (ISO) logically enough the outcome was that plugs are standardised..

Using my flawed logic, it seems that the intermediate stage towards all-electric vehicles is as it currently exists with self charging vehicles using their on board petrol engines to charge the battery as and when necessary, and it seems if you live in a situation where there is little or no possibility of plugging up to a charger, then that would be the option...?

Of course there will be those who do have the opportunity to plug in at home, and thus dependant on their needs or willingness to be convert to full EV operation they may adopt that form of technology, as some already have, given the existence of Tesla and others manufacturing totally electric vehicles...?

I guess there will be a strategy that may lead us away from old polluting vehicles, just as there was before, with the scrappage scheme for older cars... (hmm?) The govt had one for home heating boilers too... (hmm?) Thus it seems reasonable to expect if they ever manage to come up with some form of Brexit solution, that there may well be increased momentum towards getting rid of as many ICE vehicles as they can in the shortest possible time span...as to how efficiently that might be achieved... hmm..?

964.... seemed to become a far more complex Porsche than the 3.2 it followed on from, which in long term ownership may require a tad more fettling/expense than the earlier versions..? I liked that the 964 got rid of all the rubber complexities that were a pain to remove/replace and which in some cases allowed a first foothold for corrosion, but I thought the build quality of the SC was about as good as Porsche ever were...? While the 964 got rid of the rubber rubbish, it looked a bit ..err.. Dolly Parton with the enlarged front bumper, but at least you could still see the tops of the wings while sitting behind the wheel which every 911 driver up to that point was well used to... The 993.. cleaned all the lines up wonderfully well, but in so doing removed the all important wing tops from the viewpoint of the driver..! Sure the rev counter was still where it should be..BUT..!!

I know not but expect that the all new suspension system in the 964 transformed the handling as it did in the 993 and the engine with it`s twelve plugs and more also provided a good deal more power and spread more over the rev range than it`s predecessors, the 993 improving on that and much else.... though I did hear criticism on 993 build quality many years ago from a Porsche professional..hmm..?

I guess evolution demands change and having been around for a while and witnessing the evolution of much, I grudgingly accept CHANGE... So perhaps that makes me a selective Luddite...? (-: I smile when I read here of the more analogue driving experience of the 996 compared to the 997 or similar thinking applied to the 997.1 compared to the 997.2, and again with the 991... I remember back to when it was not a real Porsche if it did not have the dog leg first gear ....

Perhaps best to enjoy that which you have got while you have got it, though ICE vehicles as an investment for the average "classic" Porsche owner.... hmm? I guess that may depend on your classification of that which is or or is not a classic...? Ultimately the market decides, and market forces also evolve, sometimes even overnight...? (-:

Just thinking in type, happy for any mistakes to be corrected... (-:

Hybrids ie with a small capacity (up to 2 litre) petrol engine will become the new "norm" within a very short time period (<5 years) but full electric being the norm will be decades away IMHO

The stat which said it all to me is the fact that to support the required charging points to meet the governments targets (I think by 2030) 400 charging points need to be installed...........per day.............for over 10 years ie they are impossible to meet without significant investment by the government. How many charging points are the government installing at the moment ......erm 0 instead they are relying on the private sector to fund this.......the companies looking to "milk" this are currently doing the rounds to the large land owners with the majority refusing to invest. Yes you are seeing the motorway services, no doubt the odd supermarket / retail park install a few but the large car park operators are not. By way of example I have one large underground car park (>400 spaces) where we are getting pressure from users to install charging points, the cost just to put the basic infrastructure in >£0.5m and we are lucky to have modern sub stations on site which can support what is required in the first place, many do not. That does not include the cost to then put charging point to each space which you are looking at >£1,000 each so another £0.5m ...... in effect the goverment expects me to pay £1m to put the infrastructure into that car park eg c£2.5k per space and I'm told that is much cheaper than others are looking at !

Then you have to consider that >70% of cars in the UK simply do not have access to off raod parking at all.......I can see the fights for "lamp posts" now :grin:

Full electrification of cars simply will not happen as the "norm". Totally different tech is required....but hybrids will....soon..... :judge:

Interesting numbers there, Jon - I had no idea of the costs involved in installing charging points.
I looked online and found this report:
https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs

It states that only 25% of household vehicles are parked on the street, which seems at odds with your 70%+ figure.
It also states that there are around 32 million cars in the UK, with new car sales running at around 2.4 million in 2018. So even if every car purchased was a hybrid (it's currently one in twelve), and directly replaced a petrol or diesel car that was then scrapped, it would take 13 years to create an all-hybrid UK fleet. So I'm not sure that hybrids will be the "norm" within five years, but they'll probably become "more normal" I agree.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens to cars such as our old Porsches; will they be legislated out of existence or become valuable curiosities? Interesting times ahead, as ever.

re Hybrids becoming the "norm" I meant re new car sales, It will obviously take years to replace the existing used car market :wink:

The 70% stat is what I have seen quoted in several briefing papers, I'll try to find the source......... nb it will have been used by the suppliers to put pressure on private car park operators to install the infrastructure but I'd be surprised if the stats are so far adrift from reality :dont know: