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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark pearce wrote:
squelch wrote:
Captain Lockheed wrote:
What is the legal position here?

If a dealer D takes a car on SOR from seller S and then sells it to buyer B. Takes B's money, but doesn't pay seller S, who owns the car?


As usual it all depends on the T's&C's in the contract signed by the owner / seller of the car and the dealer (although I think often an SOR sale is pretty much just done on a verbal agreement / handshake). The law states that you cannot sell something that is not yours to sell so, in the absence of a written agreement relinquishing ownership of the vehicle to the dealer, and since the original owner has been given no consideration (payment) for his car, he still owns it. Thus, he would have the right to go and repossess / retrieve it (if he knew where it was) and the unfortunate buyer would have to seek recourse / refund from the dealer. And as we all know, the V5 is not proof of ownership, so just because the dealer has sent off the V5 it does not give the new "owner" legal possession of the vehicle. It would probably be a ball ache getting the V5 back from DVLA though, but provided there is enough evidence they ought to support.

I think if I ever used the SOR route, I would retain the spare key until I'd been paid, possibly put a tracker in the car and if the Gmund scenario happened, report to the police that it'd been stolen (by Gmund).



My understanding, from a barrister albeit 25 years ago is/ was

when you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you are giving the dealer "title' to the vehicle
if he doesn't pay you, you can only sue him for the debt,
the new owner of the vehicle, has clean title to it having bought it from a recognised car dealer.

so the original owner cannot for example take the car from the new owner as he has given his title to the goods the scum bag car dealer


That’s not true - dealers have no more rights than anyone else when it comes to property title. The chap on here still owns that car. The dealer and the new buyer have the big problem.

Same as trying to sell a lease car that does not belong to you. The garage has no title to the car - buyer beware

Sale or Return is self explanatory in layman’s terms and it’s the property owner who calls the shots.

A dealer should issue the funds to the seller before releasing the sellers property or changing or altering documentation relating to the sellers property.

If it was mine I’d report it as stolen by persons unknown if it is not where it should be or not handed back upon demand.

Last edited by patpending on Wed May 15, 2019 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Magic919
Suzuka


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 1217
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s not correct, even if it’s a version of events people find more comfortable.
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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
“Mr X, sole director of xxxxxxxxxxx Cars Limited, has today been sentenced by Manchester Crown Court (Minshull Street) to a 12month community order and ordered to pay costs and compensation.
This has been imposed due to Mr X pleading guilty to theft.
He was originally arrested and accused of both theft and fraud however the CPS settled for the 'theft' charge as he decided to plead guilty on the day in court.
The guilty plea was entered after evidence was put to Mr X that was difficult to argue against and he was threatened with disqualification as a director.
Mr X had attempted to maintain his innocence for over 8 months.
This all came about when Mr X took a car (AudiS3) to sell on a 'sale or return basis'.
The car was actually sold in February of 2014 however Mr X was still claiming in May of 2014 that he had not sold the car and should not pay any money.
Mr X pleaded guilty in January 2015 and has been sentenced today (7/9/15).

If you choose to deal with Mr X (and I wouldn't) then I recommend you do so with extreme caution. This man is now convicted of theft directly attributable to his dealings in the motor trade”


Welcome to the real world.

Now read my earlier post in term of section 2
 
  
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Hamster75
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 312
Location: Chester


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've commented on this before & find this scenario frightening to think of, I will never sell a car by SOR after reading these threads.

If this was mine I would make a right fuss on his open day, as others have said need to warn poor innocents who don't know about this rogue.
I think I would be taking good = £ to the value or falling out bad, its unreal how much of a piss take this is. Mad
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Magic919
Suzuka


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 1217
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s not just SOR. It’s happened to cars in storage and even a garage taking cars in for work.
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Pagoda1966
Newbie


Joined: 06 Apr 2019
Posts: 40
Location: Sunderland


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your continued support and suggestions folks. 9 weeks today since the vehicle changed hands. Although I’ve got lots of irons in the fire, some of them are taking time to progress, so I’m going to swing by Knaresborough police station on Saturday morning before the Open Day to report the vehicle as stolen.

If what I have planned isn’t bad enough, having plod rock up during the day will go down like a bag of cold sick.

Wish I could contact the new owner - who I have no beef with whatsoever - as he could be a powerful ally in this matter. All I know is that he’s in Telford and used to own a moonstone 3 door Cosworth. I put something on Pistonheads but no response....
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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly you don’t actually know who may have stolen your car (persons unknown) but be sure to give as many details as possible to the police in terms of who may be able to assist them with their enquiries and inc the date and time you last seen your car and its locus.....this is VERY important the reason for which I am not going to go into on here.

Generally speaking of course, forecourt thefts of high performance cars by persons unknown are not uncommon and neither is collusion.

Assume nothing and trust nobody.

If the police believe that a crime may have been committed the vehicle will be seized when located.

If the vehicle is being kept by someone else on the v5 then proof of purchase will be required to be provided to the police along with a payment transfer confirmation as dealers can’t take large cash sums any more.

Please update the thread in due course and wishing you a speedy and satisfactory conclusion.
 
  
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rc944
Trainee


Joined: 13 Dec 2018
Posts: 59



PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming whomever has the car bought it in good faith, there is no culpability on his/her part.

If there is a crime here (not just a civil claim), then the plod will call the DVLA requesting the release of the details of the registered keeper and will pursue that line of enquiry.

I cannot imagine how tiresome and exhausting must be but continue to use all levers of justice and some basic thuggery and you'll be fine

I wonder what might happen if that open day turned into a bit of a spectacle assuming some rather unsavoury non car buying types rocked up and whispered some sweet nothings into the ear of one of the folks that works there...
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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rc944 wrote:
Assuming whomever has the car bought it in good faith, there is no culpability on his/her part.

If there is a crime here (not just a civil claim), then the plod will call the DVLA requesting the release of the details of the registered keeper and will pursue that line of enquiry.

I cannot imagine how tiresome and exhausting must be but continue to use all levers of justice and some basic thuggery and you'll be fine

I wonder what might happen if that open day turned into a bit of a spectacle assuming some rather unsavoury non car buying types rocked up and whispered some sweet nothings into the ear of one of the folks that works there...


Let’s put it another way - if however has a car but cannot provide proper and satisfactory proof of purchase/ownership PRIOR to any new keeper change date, then he/she could be in deep sh*t.
 
  
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squelch
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 480
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rc944 wrote:
Assuming whomever has the car bought it in good faith, there is no culpability on his/her part.


No culpability at all, they are just another innocent victim of the deception. Buying something in good faith does not mean you own it. While it may have been bought in good faith, it was not sold in good faith (since the dealer clearly had no intention of paying the seller) and (unless the SOR contract immediately relinquished ownership to the dealer when consigning it to SOR), it remains the original owner's property.

patpending wrote:
Let’s put it another way - if however has a car but cannot provide proper and satisfactory proof of purchase/ownership PRIOR to any new keeper change date, then he/she could be in deep sh*t.

Indeed the buyer is in deep **** and is now out of pocket for paying a third party for something that does not belong to either of them.

I think some large placards stating "Gmund owes me £xx,xxx" and leaflets printed stating the facts (and a link to this forum if permitted by 911uk) and handing them out to everyone who attends. I think I'd take some "persuasive" mates too and arrive at the crack of dawn to explain my intentions and give him an hour to have the cleared funds in my account. And if not, then let the demonstration begin.... peacefully of course!
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KP964
Indianapolis


Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 2277
Location: Northumberland


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a Tw@t... i will spread the word loud at their open day.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7120
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The car has not been stolen... permission was given to the dealer under the SOR agreement to sell the car. No crime has been committed thus far and there is specific consumer law on this;
https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/selling-goods-non-owner

Given the background I would be wary of involving the police to report the car stolen for fear of being done for wasting police time. If however you wish to report a fraud then this is another matter.
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Kryton
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 397



PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pagoda1966 wrote:
Thanks for your continued support and suggestions folks. 9 weeks today since the vehicle changed hands. Although I’ve got lots of irons in the fire, some of them are taking time to progress, so I’m going to swing by Knaresborough police station on Saturday morning before the Open Day to report the vehicle as stolen.

If what I have planned isn’t bad enough, having plod rock up during the day will go down like a bag of cold sick.

Wish I could contact the new owner - who I have no beef with whatsoever - as he could be a powerful ally in this matter. All I know is that he’s in Telford and used to own a moonstone 3 door Cosworth. I put something on Pistonheads but no response....


Are you going to the open day and where is it in Knaresborough?
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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
The car has not been stolen... permission was given to the dealer under the SOR agreement to sell the car. No crime has been committed thus far and there is specific consumer law on this;
https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/selling-goods-non-owner

Given the background I would be wary of involving the police to report the car stolen for fear of being done for wasting police time. If however you wish to report a fraud then this is another matter.


Why - the guys car is gone to whom, where and under what circumstances

The previous post and court outcome clearly shows that CPS won’t view the OP as a time waster as either HIS car or HIS money is currently nowhere to be seen.
 



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easternjets
Watkins Glen


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 2081
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His premises is on the same industrial estate just outside Knaresborough as RPM Specialist Cars. If you put the post code into Sat Nav it will take you to the industrial estate.
Just look out for the 'Dust Cloud' and the Police Transit vans! Hand
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7120
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no dog in this fight.

The vendor signed an SOR agreement with the agent, left the car, keys and documents on the premises and the car was sold. The buyer has paid the money in good faith and driven off in his lovely car. All good so far.

The issue is that the vendor has not had his money. This is at best being very slow at paying, at worst trading whilst insolvent, but the car has not been stolen ie taken without consent, and going to the police to say it has may go down like a lead balloon with an overstretched force.
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easternjets
Watkins Glen


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has all the makings of a Ponzi Scheme, remember Bernie Madoff who made off with all his customers money?

It's the same premise, you loan me some money I invest it for you, then I pay you back your money plus a bit on top. he used the new investors to pay the old investors and so on till he got caught.
Same as give me your car, I'll sell it for you and give you a good price then I keep the money and buy a flat in the Seychelles!

The man is obviously robbing Peter to pay Paul, if he sold a car tomorrow he'd probably use that poor guys money to pay back Pagoda, the whole thing is a scam and the sooner he gets pulled for it the better and then hopefully made bankrupt.
No doubt 'dibble' will just say 'it's a civil matter' go see your solicitor.
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mar1b0ro
Newbie


Joined: 16 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be a good idea to tip off the local press ( Harrogate Advertiser) that something is likely to be going down at Gmund cars on Saturday so that they can get their scoop.. Nothing like a bit of extra publicity.
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997 Coast
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pagoda1966 wrote:
Thanks for your continued support and suggestions folks. 9 weeks today since the vehicle changed hands. Although I’ve got lots of irons in the fire, some of them are taking time to progress, so I’m going to swing by Knaresborough police station on Saturday morning before the Open Day to report the vehicle as stolen.

If what I have planned isn’t bad enough, having plod rock up during the day will go down like a bag of cold sick.

Wish I could contact the new owner - who I have no beef with whatsoever - as he could be a powerful ally in this matter. All I know is that he’s in Telford and used to own a moonstone 3 door Cosworth. I put something on Pistonheads but no response....


Revs me up - however - You have legal action active.


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Last edited by 997 Coast on Thu May 16, 2019 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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patpending
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 724
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
I have no dog in this fight.

The vendor signed an SOR agreement with the agent, left the car, keys and documents on the premises and the car was sold. The buyer has paid the money in good faith and driven off in his lovely car. All good so far.

The issue is that the vendor has not had his money. This is at best being very slow at paying, at worst trading whilst insolvent, but the car has not been stolen ie taken without consent, and going to the police to say it has may go down like a lead balloon with an overstretched force.


How do you know the keeper or buyer has paid in good faith and that the car has not been nicked?

Good faith carries little clout in court and the country is littered with people who buy things in good faith only to come down to earth with a bang.

The legal owner IS NOT a garage doing SOR or even the person named on the V5 and for the avoidance of doubt the courts always side on the legal owners side.

A 3rd party has no title to these goods unless he or she has paid the person who has.
 
  
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