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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Input please re my oil leak Reply with quote

OK last year I changed all the suspect gaskets on the car, camshaft covers, cam chain, cam tensioner and oil bridge O rings but still had a small leak. It was suggested by Gaurds Red that it might be a "Through bolt" and I should try a thicker oil. I did this and to be honest it hasn't got better but worse. Now my question is :-

The oil that drips is golden in colour not dirty or contaminated in any way. It looks like it did when I put it in after the oil and filter change last October. However, when I look down on top of the engine at the back where there are a few pipes I can see some dirty oil on the pipes. I am thinking could the pressure relief valve from the oil tank be spewing oil out? and if so does it go to the LHS of the engine via a pipe? I'm thinking of taking off the inlet manifold so I can have a good look and see if this is the case and I have a leaking pipe. What has made me think this, is today, I kept having to start the car to move up the line at the ITV station about 9 times in all. At the end of the ITV the guy took me down in the pit under the car and showed me the oil on the cross bar and the cover, a lot more then would usually be there. Again though the oil was golden and clean. Could I have an over pressure issue from the oil tank ??

Any input greatly appreciated Thumb

ATB Smile
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1995 993 C2 Cab TipS in Guards Red
 
  
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phib
Newbie


Joined: 11 Jan 2019
Posts: 23
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I’m an expert on these things, well apart from the fact that all my seals leak !

When you did upper cam cover gaskets did you change the covers as well as the gaskets ?

On mine that I bought recently it had new gaskets last year ( before my ownership) and a combination of warped gaskets and then the bolts being torqued too high means we are about to do them all over again !

Probably not the same issue but just a thought

Phib
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Endoman
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 1366
Location: Bolton U.K.


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a reseal this winter all the usuals but I did notice a leak from the cam chain housing. Didn't fancy doing it myself so left it for the moment excellent write up :-
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/762979-drop-engine-reseal-still-have-oil-leaks-cam-housing-to-case-camshaft-o-rings.html
The oil tank pressure relive valve just vents to atmosphere via a U-shaped hose at the top of the tank.
Dirty oil mist at the back of the engine is most likely flapper valve seals, the vram one is notorious for leaking.
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phib wrote:
Not that I’m an expert on these things, well apart from the fact that all my seals leak !

When you did upper cam cover gaskets did you change the covers as well as the gaskets ?

On mine that I bought recently it had new gaskets last year ( before my ownership) and a combination of warped gaskets and then the bolts being torqued too high means we are about to do them all over again !

Probably not the same issue but just a thought

Phib


Thanks for the reply Phib but I checked my covers with a straight edge and they were as flat as a pancake Laughing When I changed the gaskets I replaced all the bolts as well. I was well pleased with the work but then.... still a small leak Evil or Very Mad

ATB Smile
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endoman wrote:
I did a reseal this winter all the usuals but I did notice a leak from the cam chain housing. Didn't fancy doing it myself so left it for the moment excellent write up :-
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/762979-drop-engine-reseal-still-have-oil-leaks-cam-housing-to-case-camshaft-o-rings.html
The oil tank pressure relive valve just vents to atmosphere via a U-shaped hose at the top of the tank.
Dirty oil mist at the back of the engine is most likely flapper valve seals, the vram one is notorious for leaking.


Hi Endoman,

Had a look at the write up, very good indeed but I don't think I'm quite up to the job Embarassed do a fair bit of spannering but when special tools are involved I leave to the specialists.

I know you just fitted a VR to your Non VR car so you'll know your way around the top of the engine. Mine is Non VR too. The dirty oil mist pipes are just behind alternator cowling. Is there anything else there that could leak oil? My RHS is as dry as a bone. Thanks for the info re the oil tank. Does it make any difference that mine is a Tip ?

ATB Smile
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Endoman,

I've just had a good look in the PET and I see on page 34 it shows all the oil pipes. I notice there are a couple of breather pipes which have jointing pieces, do you think one of these could have come loose?

ATB Smile
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Endoman
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 1366
Location: Bolton U.K.


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is a leak at those larger breather pipe you would probably hear a whistle when the engine is running as they are subject to -ve pressure. The pic shows the underside of my non vram manifold when it took off, just a cheap liitle o-ring but it had left quite a mess over the engine cowel.
it's not difficult to remove manifold just a bit time consuming and don't drop anything down the inlet throats. Makes changeing the plug leads a doddle.
The inlet manifold will probably be covered internally with quite an oil slick as mine was.
I took the manifold off before I dropped the engine just intending to short out that leak and one from the crankcase breather elbow. Then a Vram came up on Rennlist. I'd been looking for a couple of years so I jumped at it. The tricky bit was then locating a suitable ecu. Found the right one new in Germany, that stung a bit.
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feed back Endoman Thumb

I think I'm kidding myself and just hoping that it might be something simple like a leaking pipe. Got under the car this morning and the leak is what it was. I think yesterday at the ITV there must have been a build up of oil on the under tray and when they did the brake test on the rolling road it must have spewed out.

You can see in the pics attached where it's coming from by the red arrows. It's small and after the engine is up to running temperature it stops, then drips again once the engine has cooled until it stops dripping which takes a few minutes.

I think if I want a completely leak free engine I'm going to have to bite the bullet and have a re-seal done by a professional. It's such a shame after all the work I did last year and the car runs like a dream. Oh well Que sera sera.

ATB Smile
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AndyS
Albert Park


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 1539
Location: The fast lane


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

decgraham wrote:
I think if I want a completely leak free engine I'm going to have to bite the bullet and have a re-seal done by a professional. It's such a shame after all the work I did last year and the car runs like a dream. Oh well Que sera sera.


I know how you feel.....
I've had my cam covers re-done twice over the years, and still I have a leak. Not a lot, but bloody annoying when it leaves a drop on the floor frustrated

I've now got mine booked in for a top end rebuild at 9m over winter. It's the only way ...... nooo
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1996 Polar Silver 993 Coupe - AKA 'the money pit'

 
  
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyS wrote:
decgraham wrote:
I think if I want a completely leak free engine I'm going to have to bite the bullet and have a re-seal done by a professional. It's such a shame after all the work I did last year and the car runs like a dream. Oh well Que sera sera.


I know how you feel.....
I've had my cam covers re-done twice over the years, and still I have a leak. Not a lot, but bloody annoying when it leaves a drop on the floor frustrated

I've now got mine booked in for a top end rebuild at 9m over winter. It's the only way ...... nooo


Thanks Andy,

Yes it is upsetting, all the areas I covered with new gaskets are fine just that small leak you can see in the pic.

Out of interest what sort of money have you been quoted for a top end rebuild if you don't mind me asking?

ATB Smile
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AndyS
Albert Park


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 1539
Location: The fast lane


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

decgraham wrote:

Thanks Andy,

Yes it is upsetting, all the areas I covered with new gaskets are fine just that small leak you can see in the pic.

Out of interest what sort of money have you been quoted for a top end rebuild if you don't mind me asking?


Not at all - I'm using 9m, so may be paying slightly more than other places. I just want to know it's right and they have a good rep.
It's price-book, and shown on the web site. They quote £1950 + vat for labour, then you have to factor in removal and refitting of the engine and the cost of all parts including gaskets and consumables. Ball park figure estimate is around £5500 all in - unless something horrible is found.....
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1996 Polar Silver 993 Coupe - AKA 'the money pit'

 
  
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andy much appreciated. There are a couple of specialist I know of in Alicante and Valencia so it gives me a good idea when it comes to negotiating the price Thumb

ATB Smile
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guards red
Hockenheim


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 666



PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi decgraham,

The arrows on your picture point pretty much exactly where the through bolts for the case halves are having come through the block from the other side. I'm afraid that chances are it will be them.

To check, it is possible to remove the air guide that covers the bolts though it is a bit of a pain. To do so, both oil return pipes on that side have to come out (one of yours looks like it has a dent, though they look orginal - not the extendable ones). Then the studs holding the air guide in place need to come out, these can be unscrewed using two bolts. Thre are three studs. Finally the main oil return pipe screwed into the base of the block has to be disconnected. If the through bolts are wet the seals have failed.

Unfortunately the through bolts go through the main oil galleries and are under pressure via the oil pump, as the oil thins as it gets hot it will leak past the seals.

This can happen on older engines when well intentioned owners change the oil to modern synthetics with cleaning agents. This oil removes the crud built up on the inside of the seals and they leak.

There is no fix other than disassembly to the point of taking the case halves apart.

What oil are you using?

Regards
GR
 
  
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decgraham
Barcelona


Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 1343
Location: Spain


PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks GR your knowledge is second to none IMHO worship you told me this last year. It's just that I had a brain storm, yes I know can be dangerous Laughing and thought it just might be something else. Don't think I'll be doing all that you suggest, with respect I'll pass it onto a professional and get them to sort it. You don't fancy a few weeks in Spain do you Cool

Oh the through tube got the dent when I removed the coupling and replaced the aluminium washer seal ring, just in case the leak was thete. Didn't keep my eye on the spanner. frustrated

Oil is now 15/40 as you suggested.

Thanks again for your input

ATB Smile
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Hockenheim


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Posts: 666



PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love a week in the sun, but I'm still carrying my "winter" fat and nobody needs to see that in a teeshirt...

Best of luck with it.

Regards
GR
 
  
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