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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Narrow escape - possible bore scoring. Reply with quote

Hi all,
Have been looking to buy a 997.1 for a while now and saw and drove a nice example which seemed to fit the bill. The owner is a forum member (although not particularly active) and had owned the car for 2 years or so. When he bought it he specifically looked for a rebuilt car like I seem to be doing, so I drove it and we agreed on a PPI by Larose Porsche in Kent. The engine had been subject to a warranty claim by a previous owner for borescoring, and as a result was rebuilt by Hartech. All 3 cylinders on bank 1 were it seems not machined out and replaced with nicasil liners but simply overbored to round and replacement pistons installed. Bank 2 was just fitted with a top brace (?) and the whole engine was treated to new big ends, small ends, and about a million gaskets and seals etc. Total bill for this work was £10k, and the engine had done around 35k when I saw the car. It seems as though the rebuild was done 'on the cheap', presumable on instruction from the owner/warranty company. I certainly cannot blame Hartech for the fact it didnt put Nicasil liners in..

PPI highlighted a number of issues on the car that I was expecting (shocks, exhaust, brake and other 'consumables') but I wasnt expecting all 6 cylinders to have scoring Surprised , needless to say neither was the current owner....

So i guess this is just a word of warning to anyone else out there who sees a car advertised as having a Hartech rebuild and thinks that will be a replacement of a proper PPI with a borescope then think again and make sure you insist on the check. And check the invoice to see exactly what has been done int he process of the engine rebuild.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blimey! Surprised

As you say, a Hartech rebuild is considered the gold standard, but only as good as the person writing the cheque. Most odd to have gone to those lengths and £10k expense as actually when the engine is in bits the incremental extra costs such as a closed-deck Nikasil head are not huge over what was spent. Were it me, and the warranty company had drawn the line at new cylinder linings I would have been inclined to have paid for that element myself.

However, before setting hares running, I would be interested in Hartech's opinion on the bore-scope pics.

I'm not an engineer, but how would over-boring to round work if you fitted new pistons, unless they were also oversized...?
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"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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RXBoxster
Monza


Joined: 31 Jul 2015
Posts: 216
Location: Preston - Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

they wouldn't have overbored it... as oversized pistons arn't available, and aluminium cylinders either need re-coating in nikasil, or steel liners fitting.
 
  
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darkhorse
Monza


Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 156
Location: under the car


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bet the car owner is a tad gutted. and so will the new one be if its not declared on sale!
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There needs to be more clarity on actual work done. I'm guessing only the original scored bores were sorted and now the existing ones have scored. I'd only ever touch a full 6 pack. I'm currently waiting to here from a dealer regarding the exact same thing.

"Full Hartech rebuild" can mean many things to many people.
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FZP
Estoril


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3815
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
There needs to be more clarity on actual work done. I'm guessing only the original scored bores were sorted and now the existing ones have scored. I'd only ever touch a full 6 pack. I'm currently waiting to here from a dealer regarding the exact same thing.

"Full Hartech rebuild" can mean many things to many people.

Correct- all of which would be factually correct, so you can't ping them for it.
Anything other than a six pack would have me walking away like Craig David Grin Get Me Coat
Anyone reading it at this point has that song in their head now Grin
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only know Bo Selecta........or in this case Bore Selecta! wack
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FZP wrote:

Anything other than a six pack would have me walking away like Craig David Grin Get Me Coat
Anyone reading it at this point has that song in their head now Grin


Yep. Damn you! what

I prefer the Shaggy song... NotMe
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RXBoxster wrote:
they wouldn't have overbored it... as oversized pistons arn't available, and aluminium cylinders either need re-coating in nikasil, or steel liners fitting.


Apologies you are correct, the invoice states:
"Carry out repair to bare crankcase
Replace cylinder 4/5/6 and machine cylinder to piston
Check roundness of cylinders 1/2/3 and install top brace
check existing pistons and match to new"

3 new OEM pistons are listed in the bill.

I believe the guy has part ex'd the car against an M5 so no doubt it will make its way back into the system....
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to put the plate on here then.
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4572
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver wrote:
RXBoxster wrote:
they wouldn't have overbored it... as oversized pistons arn't available, and aluminium cylinders either need re-coating in nikasil, or steel liners fitting.


Apologies you are correct, the invoice states:
"Carry out repair to bare crankcase
Replace cylinder 4/5/6 and machine cylinder to piston
Check roundness of cylinders 1/2/3 and install top brace
check existing pistons and match to new"

3 new OEM pistons are listed in the bill.

I believe the guy has part ex'd the car against an M5 so no doubt it will make its way back into the system....



It may be helpful to edit your original post as some may take your opening post and run in the wrong direction with it.
 
  
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
You need to put the plate on here then.


I would if I knew it (was on a private plate when I viewed it which will be taken off), let me see if the old plate was on the Hpi...
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even a description will do, eg. Artic silver manual coupe.
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, so it was a basalt black C2s Reg AE54LCU, sitting on black centred replica Fuchs wheels, 991 steering wheel, highback seats, chrono and a maxflo exhaust
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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krispe
Monza


Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 246
Location: Northampton


PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver wrote:
RXBoxster wrote:
they wouldn't have overbored it... as oversized pistons arn't available, and aluminium cylinders either need re-coating in nikasil, or steel liners fitting.


Apologies you are correct, the invoice states:
"Carry out repair to bare crankcase
Replace cylinder 4/5/6 and machine cylinder to piston
Check roundness of cylinders 1/2/3 and install top brace
check existing pistons and match to new"

3 new OEM pistons are listed in the bill.

I believe the guy has part ex'd the car against an M5 so no doubt it will make its way back into the system....


OK I'll bite. I read that as Cylinders 4,5,6 all replaced with new liners and 3 new pistons fitted. Pretty standard for Hartech. Cylinders 1,2,3, checked for signs of ovaling and then retaining rings fitted to strengthen them. All of which sounds fine... Now the real question is who did the borescope and do you have any pictures? Nikasil liners will show running in marks on all of them as the piston rings bed in, (the marks are from the rings, not scoring to the bore). The original cylinders in bank 1 may show some marks, but again it is hard to tell if these are actually problematic scores. Did the car have any other borescore symptoms? (Tapping noise from piston slap, high oil consumption/blue smoke on hard acceleration, sooty exhaust tips). Not saying you were wrong to walk away from this car, but I find it very hard to believe all 6 cylinders are now scored?????
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Racing Yellow Cayman 981GTS
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krispe wrote:
Now the real question is who did the borescope and do you have any pictures?


OP said La Rose Porsche who've been around for years... but I agree there is a degree of interpretation to bore-scope pics, and I wonder how many engines have been condemned prematurely to expensive engine work in the absence of any other major symptoms (by which I mean using unusual amounts of oil and sounding like a cement mixer at idle).
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"911- the guilt-free supercar"

Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black

Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
 
  
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure why you find it hard to believe, its pretty much accepted that these engines (the 3.Cool can and do score their bores. The bank that was replaced did it in around 35/40k, the other bank had 100k. Plenty of examples around of cars doing it in less and more mileage.

There were no sooty tips, but when I arrived to look the car over (had asked the owner not to drive it or warm it up so it was stone cold not started for a couple of days) there was a rather large puff of smoke from the right hand exhaust (Off side) which of course could have been the 'they all do that'.

Its just a real shame that had another £500-1000 been spent at the time of the rebuild, the car would have been bulletproof. Dont know
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the pics if anyone is interested
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17065
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's the scored ones?
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