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Porkaholic
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 277
Location: Cornwall

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won a goldfish at the fair once and it lived into its teens! Never let it out on its own, bus drivers round here are a bit unsympathetic to wandering fish.

I also had a wonderful Gen 1. 997 Tip which gave me 50k plus trouble free miles, I even didn't mind it's qwerky auto box. I didn't know any better so what?

I have a Cornish beer!

Enjoy your Porkers chaps
:thumb:
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Last edited by Porkaholic on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16155
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel for the poor sod who got landed with a £10k rebuild after buying it off you Grin
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Alex
Le Mans
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Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16155
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....for the car, not the fish.
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2K
Newbie


Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 33
Location: West Sussex


PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but memory serves my correctly GMG you bought a 70k tip 3.6 gen2 996 with the rock solid belief your thinking of below 80k was best. In reality you purchased, from a trader, a ‘below average mileage’ (which will always scream, ragged from cold stop start London motor). Bought the wrong engine 3.6 instead correct 3.4, and cherry on top being a tip!

There seems to be a correlation between, a newly purchased 3.6/3.8, from a trader, and problems.

I’d say to anyone who can’t afford the rebuild cost, do it but buy a 3.4 quick.

And to other cheap 911 buyers, avoid non main stream traders (probably troublesome ex auction cars), below average mileage smelling of roses car from a trader (probably troublesome ex auction cars) and to a less extent, uncared for moon miles with large gaps and patchy history. Buy an honest car with work done, from an honest private seller.

Lastly, if you can’t afford a rebuild, buy a 3.4, before they take off and make yourself some cushioning money in the long term.

GMG wrote:
...wasz...so you know more than Hartech do you? Who have repeatedly advised that crank bearings on these , for example, are worn enough to be of increasing concern after about 70-80k miles...didn't think so!

..of course they say that ignorance is bliss thus if you own a high mileage (>80k miles) car then by all means continue to naively and incorrectly assume that just because it's still running then it's in ' just run in ' internal condition ... it won't be...

Thus I repeat that anyone buying one of these that hasn't had an engine rebuild or doesn't have a spare £10k in the bank is taking a massive risk; if you believe this to be controversial this says more about your lack of knowledge than mine...

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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1749
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always enjoy these threads Very Happy

Phil is spot on Thumb Don't but a 15 year old performance car of any type and not expect to lay out some cash to keep it healthy! There is obviously a risk of needing to shell out some serious wedge with these cars if you are unlucky! A quick (unscientific) test of all 3.8 997's on sale on Autotrader results in 6 out of 251 referencing Hartech, and 13 of 251 referring to a rebuild of some sort, consistent with the theory that bore scoring affects a fairly small percentage of these engines.

I bought my car 3 1/2 years ago, I was aware of the potential for engine issues, but ultimately buying a 911, like many things, is an emotional decision, so the risk factor went out of the window! Fortunately I ended up paying less than I had original intended for the car, so when it was diagnosed with bore scoring 6 months after buying it, painful as it was, I was sort of prepared for it! Man maths convinced me that a £10k outlay that gave me a good as new (well better really) engine, plus adding a little value to a car that holds it's value much better than anything else out there already for similar money, made it a little easier to bear!

I bought a brand new Merc 15 years ago for my ex Confused sold it after three years and lost more than it cost me for my engine rebuild (much more), a car that brought me no pleasure whatsoever!

My advice, buy a 997 with your eyes wide open, buy it anyway and drive the nuts off, be prepared for some big bills, but enjoy Thumb Thumb
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16155
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair on those stats - many of the Hartech jobs are dealers making a car sellable (only getting the rogue cylinder fixed) and probably aren't listed by them as being a rebuild when selling. It's like when you backed your car into the garden wall and have the rear resprayed - you never, ever put it in your listing when selling.
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jl-c
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 142
Location: Shropshire


PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob wrote:
I always enjoy these threads Very Happy

Phil is spot on Thumb Don't but a 15 year old performance car of any type and not expect to lay out some cash to keep it healthy! There is obviously a risk of needing to shell out some serious wedge with these cars if you are unlucky! A quick (unscientific) test of all 3.8 997's on sale on Autotrader results in 6 out of 251 referencing Hartech, and 13 of 251 referring to a rebuild of some sort, consistent with the theory that bore scoring affects a fairly small percentage of these engines.

I bought my car 3 1/2 years ago, I was aware of the potential for engine issues, but ultimately buying a 911, like many things, is an emotional decision, so the risk factor went out of the window! Fortunately I ended up paying less than I had original intended for the car, so when it was diagnosed with bore scoring 6 months after buying it, painful as it was, I was sort of prepared for it! Man maths convinced me that a £10k outlay that gave me a good as new (well better really) engine, plus adding a little value to a car that holds it's value much better than anything else out there already for similar money, made it a little easier to bear!

I bought a brand new Merc 15 years ago for my ex Confused sold it after three years and lost more than it cost me for my engine rebuild (much more), a car that brought me no pleasure whatsoever!

My advice, buy a 997 with your eyes wide open, buy it anyway and drive the nuts off, be prepared for some big bills, but enjoy Thumb Thumb


Thumb Thumb thumbsup I might add that all dealings I have had with Hartech have been nothing but helpful and professional at all times and in fact they advised me out of spending more money that I was prepared to pay as they felt I wouldn't get value for it. Biased no, and I think saying that they are only there to make money is insulting. Sure, making money has to be part of it, it is a business after all, but they have a passion for all things Porsche and share that passion with a love of good engineering practice.
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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1749
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
To be fair on those stats - many of the Hartech jobs are dealers making a car sellable (only getting the rogue cylinder fixed) and probably aren't listed by them as being a rebuild when selling. It's like when you backed your car into the garden wall and have the rear resprayed - you never, ever put it in your listing when selling.


Agree Alex, very unscientific, but at least it's an indication that bore scoring is not prevalent Confused

Have never reversed into a wall... but I have run head on into a lamp post outside a friends house in full view of all my mates Embarassed Sad
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Alex
Le Mans
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Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16155
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grin
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15243
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob wrote:
Alex wrote:
To be fair on those stats - many of the Hartech jobs are dealers making a car sellable (only getting the rogue cylinder fixed) and probably aren't listed by them as being a rebuild when selling. It's like when you backed your car into the garden wall and have the rear resprayed - you never, ever put it in your listing when selling.


Agree Alex, very unscientific, but at least it's an indication that bore scoring is not prevalent Confused

Have never reversed into a wall... but I have run head on into a lamp post outside a friends house in full view of all my mates Embarassed Sad


10 pints does cause that to happen Rob. Grin is it just a coincidence that 13 of 251 is about the magic 5% Dont know thats spooky Cool Grin

Anyway you guys that spend 25k on a gen1 and then spend another 10k on a rebuild have it soooooo good Grin try being the sucker that spent 48k on a bullet proof gen2 4S with the "oh you must have a manual its not a 911 if its not got a manual" and within 18 months had to spend another 25k on an engine rebuild , gearbox rebuild, clutch and flywheel and all the coolant pipes replaced . and I am still smiling and love all things 997, but still hate manuals Grin Grin Grin

Maybe I need to buy a goldfish Question Floor Floor Floor
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FZP
Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3404
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
DucatiRob wrote:
Alex wrote:
To be fair on those stats - many of the Hartech jobs are dealers making a car sellable (only getting the rogue cylinder fixed) and probably aren't listed by them as being a rebuild when selling. It's like when you backed your car into the garden wall and have the rear resprayed - you never, ever put it in your listing when selling.


Agree Alex, very unscientific, but at least it's an indication that bore scoring is not prevalent Confused

Have never reversed into a wall... but I have run head on into a lamp post outside a friends house in full view of all my mates Embarassed Sad


10 pints does cause that to happen Rob. Grin is it just a coincidence that 13 of 251 is about the magic 5% Dont know thats spooky Cool Grin

Anyway you guys that spend 25k on a gen1 and then spend another 10k on a rebuild have it soooooo good Grin try being the sucker that spent 48k on a bullet proof gen2 4S with the "oh you must have a manual its not a 911 if its not got a manual" and within 18 months had to spend another 25k on an engine rebuild , gearbox rebuild, clutch and flywheel and all the coolant pipes replaced . and I am still smiling and love all things 997, but still hate manuals Grin Grin Grin

Maybe I need to buy a goldfish Question Floor Floor Floor

Les and Phil997. Two of the unluckiest punters in the Porsche world
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Counter Of Beans
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 295
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baz, to quote your own post:

"come on all you doubters and take me on over what bias you think we provide! telling the truth is not bias which according to the dictionary is "something unfair, unreasonable, a misstep in thinking, a discrepency between a measurement and the true value etc"

Sorry to be pedantic, but logically there is a discrepancy between measurement and the true value - because 1) you only measure the broken cars, and 2) no-one knows the true value.

Perhaps you misinterpret the concept of bias. You can tell the truth and still be biased. For example GMG on this thread is being truthful and honest when he says 997 gen 1's are risky. But he's biased because he had one go pop. You might argue that he has a "misstep in thinking" since apparently only 5% of cars are affected.

My mother-in-law used to say "Welsh people are rude" because she once had a rude customer who was Welsh. She was truthful, but biased. Her opinion was based on her experience. So is GMG's, mine, in fact all the posters on this thread, including Hartech.

In summary, Baz, don't confuse bias with integrity. They are different, and I suspect Hartech has both, like we all (hopefully) do.

Regards, Mike.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16155
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She wasn't biased - Welsh people are rude.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6520823/The-Welsh-are-unfriendly-and-rude-finds-report-by-their-own-tourist-board.html
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15243
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJD (Kev) isn't rude , but then its my opinion that the Welsh are the real English as thats where queen boudicca and her people fled when the Romans came , the rest of us are from Saxony or Normandy or Norway and many other countries around the world . queen boudicca was a Celt and I have often heard the Welsh called something like that Floor Floor Floor
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GMG
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 366
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...2k...where have you been?

While we were running around arranging PPIs, researching endlessly, seeking counsel from the erudite amongst those on these forums etc ,etc all we needed to do was request that you apply your mystical insights and tell us which cars aren't going to explode on us ... you could have saved us all expense and heartache...

Floor
 
  
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911 AU
Silverstone


Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 123
Location: Worcestershire


PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
there will always be the two camps the "they are all going to go pop at some point" camp and the "Its only a small percentage and a reasonable risk "camp.



Mine went pop so for me it was a 100%!
But I'd had 50k+ miles and 11 years out of the car for very little expenditure (£18k purchase price minus whatever the plate 911 AU is worth + not an awful lot of running costs)
Best car I've had.
£10k for an engine rebuild? My quote was £11k+vat for 3.4 or £14k+vat for 3.7. Plus the cost of those 'while the engine is out jobs.'
That would leave me with a tatty C2 tip cab with a great engine.
Or I could buy a mint C4S tip cab with a run-in full rebuild (less than 10k miles) and an additional £22k spent in the last few thousand miles for a tad over £25k. Guess which I did.
I guess if I had more time, more skills and couldn't/didn't want to spend that then I might have carried on with the old car.

I only looked for cars with a Hartech rebuild when looking for a replacement car.

Different paths work for different people, no right or wrong

Cheers

Ed
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