Pricing opinion on fresh Hartech engine rebuild 997 C2 Tip

:thumbs: Good call.

Question 1: Have you fit a LTT to your M96 3.6 / M97 3.6 & 3.8 engine?

Question 2: Why?

I fitted a LTT to my M97 3.8 and still had bore score BUT I have no idea how the previous owners drove the car for 60,000 miles before I had it. Cost me a lot for a full Hartech rebuild but hey, some you win, some you lose. I was 'aware" so it was a risk I took. I had 10,000 out of it before it had to be done. The only way to be sure is 1: buy a fully rebuilt one or 2: buy a new one. Simple choice! I thoroughly enjoyed the 10,000 and intend to enjoy the next!

...after my ims related failure I asked for an LTT to be fitted during the rebuild and two of my cylinder bores 5&6 were showing signs of scoring which when shared with Hartech they advised that liners were required...I went for all 6 new liners...

Car had 69k miles, two owners and full and comprehensive OPC dealership service history...

Alex said:

:thumbs: Good call.

Question 1: Have you fit a LTT to your M96 3.6 / M97 3.6 & 3.8 engine?

Question 2: Why?

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Rather

If I run this through an online survey there need to be a sequence to the question, then options at certain stages before moving onto the next question

as this is not as simple as a yes or no

However much some contributors may doubt my integrity - there is a point of logic (or lack of it) in accusing me of bias. In what way does it help my business by advising people how to avoid an engine bore score? It can only reduce the number that fail and therefore demand and in turn demand and supply affects the prices - and only benefits owners if demand is reduced.

Furthrmore the advice about a low temperature thermostat could not possibly earn us any money (especially when it cost several thousands to put temperaure sensors inside engines and test them with different radiator areas in different ambient conditions and driving styles).

Soon to be released to our web site an up to date report on the causes of bore scoring that will indicate how much time and money we devoted to understanding it and therefore providing the best solutions - and that should be enough to convince any doubters of what we are all about - helping owners achieve reliable repairs - and/or increased performance for their money, from a reliable trustworthy supplier.

I suppose I could throq back to doubters that they are in league with unscrupulous competitors and just trying to discredit us for the benefit of themselves or others - but I wouldn't stoop so low without proof.

All the posts on failures, causes and alternative cures are only of interest to those either with bore scoring, or who would not be able to afford a rebuild if they bought a car that suferred - it does not make a car score a bore because we wrote about it.


There are some trustworthy businesses with ethics out there and I do wish those with other agendas or who for some reason cannot trust anyone would just think before casting doubts in the minds of others who may need our help one day.


There are plenty of rogues out there fixing engines short term - but of course - they don[t offer free advice - knowing we could destroy their lack of knowledge and quality solutions.


Our only intention is to inform owners with problems about what we supply and why and if that results in more business it is for the benefit of their car and future purchases of the same car - it is not in any way BIASED.


By explaining technically all that we do we invite others to argue technically - but they never do - because what we do is right and top quality. If we were writing biased technical stuff it would be easy for anyone else to argue against it.


So - come on all you doubters and take me on over what bias you think we provide! telling the truth is not bias which according to the dictionary is "something unfair, unreasonable, a misstep in thinking, a discrepency between a measurement and the true value etc" - give us a break!


Baz

The discussion around these engines demonstrates what that particular risk profile is of the psrson enquiring. Some people will want limited risk in their investment, whereas some people will throw caution to the wind with a "she'll be right"
Evidence suggests through experience that certain precursors will lead to issues, so those with a low risk profile will try and avoid those cars, even though they may never develop the scoring.
As someone with a low risk profile for toy investments, I'd pay more for a full Hartech rebuild, and for a 3.6 would pay £24k.

The phrase "I would pay more for a car with a Hartech rebuild" that frequently crops up on these pages tells all that you need to know about the esteem that Baz and his team are generally held.

Put another way, that I could have my 996 4S, engine rebuilt by Hartech, and Ohlins R&T set up by CoG for £30k inc what I paid 4 yrs ago for the car is actually quite exciting. I can't think of another car for the same outlay that I'd want more.

ld: You lot really shouldn't be sharing "internet wisdom" on here, this isn't pistonheads.

:wack:

jl-c said:

I fitted a LTT to my M97 3.8 and still had bore score BUT I have no idea how the previous owners drove the car for 60,000 miles before I had it. Cost me a lot for a full Hartech rebuild but hey, some you win, some you lose. I was 'aware" so it was a risk I took. I had 10,000 out of it before it had to be done. The only way to be sure is 1: buy a fully rebuilt one or 2: buy a new one. Simple choice! I thoroughly enjoyed the 10,000 and intend to enjoy the next!

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Well said! I've done 10k in mine since buying it last August, it's been a dream - it had a full rebuild (6 cyl) just before I bought mine at JAZ Porsche and I drive around with peace of mind even though there are those on here that believe that I should be expecting the bores to go at any point the same as driving a non-rebuilt car!

I've no doubt in my mind that there's evidence that bore scoring is an issue, and no doubt in my mind that every thing Hartech posts about it is the absolute truth, what I do think is a shame is those who have never suffered bore scoring or even owned a 997.1 constantly putting people off buying them, as if you'd be crazy to do so, I'm glad I didn't take any notice of them last August as otherwise I wouldn't have had the fantastic experience of owning an awesome 911 for the last 10k miles, and it's a shame that there's increasing amounts of people that are being put off by those on here constantly banging the drum, those perspective buyers are missing out on owning their dream car. The info needs to be given, but IMO just preparing perspective buyers for the 'what if' scenario and arming them with the info, with no proof of failure rates as we just don't have them, rather than implying that 'you'd be mad to buy a 3.8S Tip' or whatever, because that's not the case.

Seeing a lot of cars with bore score in a relatively small but nationally reputed garage that covers the whole of the UK and specialises in fixing this issue, doesn't really give enough evidence that the failure rate is huge IMO.

As said many times before, if you can't afford to shell out for a rebuild 'if' necessary then don't buy a 911, but being put off buying one purely because of the 'what if' is a shame IMO, they're fantastic cars and not worthy of some comments constantly made by the same people in every thread, as it just makes the probability 'seem' worse than it probably is. IMO.

Ah , I have tried to avoid contributing to this emotive topic thread but its Friday afternoon I am bored so what the hell :grin: :grin:

reading through the threads there are reasonable and fair responses from both camps , there will always be the two camps the "they are all going to go pop at some point" camp and the "Its only a small percentage and a reasonable risk "camp.

What none of us know is whether the percentage will increase as the cars get older and miles higher and you can only make an assumption one way or the other.

What I would say to anyone buying a 15yr old thoroughbred sports car of any marque is DONT stretch yourself to the max and DONT assume you won't get no bills . Its just unrealistic . the 997.1 on the whole is a very reliable car that can be driven every day should you wish to but there are 2 or 3 possible risks that come with ownership which is the same for many marques eg Maserati, Range Rover and the list goes on . but we are talking 997s there are logical theories that the 3.6 is stronger and the manual better than the tip re borescore but the 3.6 is not infallible but is clearly seen in lower numbers .

there are things we can do to reduce risk and the advise Hartech offer is sound , we have no way of knowing how previous owners looked after the car though but logic would suggest that if you intended to drive the car hard you would have specced a 3.8 not a 3.6 but then we have the drive it regularly versus the garage queen scenario and would a regularly driven 3.8 be less risk than a 3.6 garage queen
:dont know: So really given all the different possibilities it does boil down to personal opinion of risk . and whether man maths can contribute to making you feel better about things .

This I think is where I sit.
We are lucky these cars dont depreciate at the speed something like a bmw or merc does or at the MACH1 depreciation speed of fords and Vauxhalls .

So if your going to own and drive a 25k car for 4/5 years your almost certainly going to lose half the value somewhere some how, this will happen to 100% of fords, vauxhalls , mercs, bmws and most other marques . on the other hand it may or may not happen to a 997.1 you will probably lose a few thousand in depreciation but maybe only 3 or 4k ( based on how things have looked over the past 5 or so years) this means should you need a rebuild you have only lost the same as you would owning any other marque and if you dont you got to enjoy very cheap performance sports car ownership.

If you cannot take the risk or cannot fund a rebuild then I would suggest you look for a hartech full6 rebuild and pay the slight premium for one .

If you cannot or dont want to pay the slight premium for a hartech car but also cannot work the man maths option then I suggest you look at KIA turdingos or the like :grin:

The reason we all think Hartech are the best is purely that Baz etc spend time on forums like this advising us how to minimise risks having spend years now reading Baz etc posts they are not IMO biased . what has happened is that the HARTECH name has become synonymous with a feeling of trust and confidence meaning that should we find ourselves in that need a rebuild position ,its fairly likely we will go to them or at least get a quote from them, this is where Hartech win as their name is on most owners lips ,but in turn the owners that get a hartech full6 can expect to get a slight premium for that car when its sold as the hartech name carries the confidence and trust branding .

In the past 6 months during my 997.2 rebuild I have had numerous conversations with Baz , Grant and Tobias at Hartech and have always found them . honest ,straightforward and decent and the knowledge they have is incredible.

As you can probably see currently I dont really sit in either camp, but do suggest your realistic about owning and running a 15yr old thoroughbred sports car, they are not unicorns :grin:

But what I do know is theres very very little else you can buy for 25k ish that will bring a smile and driver enjoyment in a fast road car that can be used daily other than a 911 :grin: :grin:

ok that all from me as my beer fridge has just been restocked :grin: :grin: :thumb: :thumb:

I won a goldfish at the fair once and it lived into its teens! Never let it out on its own, bus drivers round here are a bit unsympathetic to wandering fish.

I also had a wonderful Gen 1. 997 Tip which gave me 50k plus trouble free miles, I even didn't mind it's qwerky auto box. I didn't know any better so what?

I have a Cornish beer!

Enjoy your Porkers chaps
:thumb:

I feel for the poor sod who got landed with a £10k rebuild after buying it off you :grin:

.....for the car, not the fish.

Yeah but memory serves my correctly GMG you bought a 70k tip 3.6 gen2 996 with the rock solid belief your thinking of below 80k was best. In reality you purchased, from a trader, a 'below average mileage' (which will always scream, ragged from cold stop start London motor). Bought the wrong engine 3.6 instead correct 3.4, and cherry on top being a tip!

There seems to be a correlation between, a newly purchased 3.6/3.8, from a trader, and problems.

I'd say to anyone who can't afford the rebuild cost, do it but buy a 3.4 quick.

And to other cheap 911 buyers, avoid non main stream traders (probably troublesome ex auction cars), below average mileage smelling of roses car from a trader (probably troublesome ex auction cars) and to a less extent, uncared for moon miles with large gaps and patchy history. Buy an honest car with work done, from an honest private seller.

Lastly, if you can't afford a rebuild, buy a 3.4, before they take off and make yourself some cushioning money in the long term.

GMG said:

...wasz...so you know more than Hartech do you? Who have repeatedly advised that crank bearings on these , for example, are worn enough to be of increasing concern after about 70-80k miles...didn't think so!

..of course they say that ignorance is bliss thus if you own a high mileage (>80k miles) car then by all means continue to naively and incorrectly assume that just because it's still running then it's in ' just run in ' internal condition ... it won't be...

Thus I repeat that anyone buying one of these that hasn't had an engine rebuild or doesn't have a spare £10k in the bank is taking a massive risk; if you believe this to be controversial this says more about your lack of knowledge than mine...

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I always enjoy these threads

Phil is spot on :thumb: Don't but a 15 year old performance car of any type and not expect to lay out some cash to keep it healthy! There is obviously a risk of needing to shell out some serious wedge with these cars if you are unlucky! A quick (unscientific) test of all 3.8 997's on sale on Autotrader results in 6 out of 251 referencing Hartech, and 13 of 251 referring to a rebuild of some sort, consistent with the theory that bore scoring affects a fairly small percentage of these engines.

I bought my car 3 1/2 years ago, I was aware of the potential for engine issues, but ultimately buying a 911, like many things, is an emotional decision, so the risk factor went out of the window! Fortunately I ended up paying less than I had original intended for the car, so when it was diagnosed with bore scoring 6 months after buying it, painful as it was, I was sort of prepared for it! Man maths convinced me that a £10k outlay that gave me a good as new (well better really) engine, plus adding a little value to a car that holds it's value much better than anything else out there already for similar money, made it a little easier to bear!

I bought a brand new Merc 15 years ago for my ex :? sold it after three years and lost more than it cost me for my engine rebuild (much more), a car that brought me no pleasure whatsoever!

My advice, buy a 997 with your eyes wide open, buy it anyway and drive the nuts off, be prepared for some big bills, but enjoy :thumb: :thumb: