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Pricing opinion on fresh Hartech engine rebuild 997 C2 Tip

Whilst I agree with most of your sentiments ^ I would wager that the % of bore scored cars would be a bit higher if you looked at the stats of purely 3.8S Tips that have failed, as opposed to percentage of all variants of 997.1 overall.

I do agree that there's a lot of doom mongering on here which isn't particularly helpful though, there's certainly an issue with bore scoring on some of these cars but it doesn't warrant the few on here persistently putting people off buying 997.1's citing almost certain engine failure at any given moment.

People should always buy with their eyes open to the possibilities but I do feel that those possibilities are over exaggerated on here by these few members.
 
resigner said:
GMG said:
...you would have to be brave or stupid not to buy a rebuilt car for a few grand more than a non rebuilt one...it's not just bore score you know :dont know:

This is misleading and complete *****. You really shouldn't be sharing "internet wisdom" on here, this isn't pistonheads. We actually know what we are talking about. If you want to limit yourself to a rebuilt car that's fine, but seriously, as we know bore score is 3% to 5% of cars, and IMS is the older version in 2005 cars and before (small generalisation there, yes of course I know it's an engine range number thing....) then newer IMS cars, 19 of 20 are perfectly fine. More importantly, we now know so much more about the problems and what causes them and the way to prevent them, warm it up properly, LTT (though possibly not) etc. mean far less are failing these days because we look after them. Sure some will still fail, but what magnificent cars they are.

Really had enough of the doom mongering ***** artists on here spraying misinformation around. Realise you meant to be sharing knowledge so people can make informed decisions. If you don't want any risk, don't go outside ever, after all, I'm sure my cousin had a friend who had a teacher who had a goldfish which got run over by a bus once, so you shouldn't risk going outside ever.


Experience trumps hard facts for most people.

GMG had IMS bearing failure, it doesn't matter that the real world failure rate is something like 3%, he experienced the failure and that is his "truth".

Populist politicians use this to their advantage all they time. Farage and co twisted and reinforced what people thought to be their experience to use them for his own advantage.

Any engine will wear out the bores, these are doing it prematurely in quite a few cases. Of course it might never happen to you - and if the cost difference is £5k vs a rebuild of £10k that might be a risk worth taking for some people to buy a car with otherwise clean bores. Many "rebuilds" are just one cylinder, in that case its no better really than buying an original car - unless other bits have been done.
 
wasz said:
Of course it might never happen to you - and if the cost difference is £5k vs a rebuild of £10k that might be a risk worth taking for some people to buy a car with otherwise clean bores. Many "rebuilds" are just one cylinder, in that case its no better really than buying an original car - unless other bits have been done.

Agree with the above, I wouldn't touch a car with an aftermarket IMS bearing, or a half-done rebuild, which most have had.

Glad I have owned mine for a long time, and know exactly what has been done to it, and how it has been looked after.
 
I wouldn't buy a performance car I couldn't do traffic light GPs in without risking scoring the bores. WTF is all that about :dont know: :nooo:
 
...wasz...so you know more than Hartech do you? Who have repeatedly advised that crank bearings on these , for example, are worn enough to be of increasing concern after about 70-80k miles...didn't think so!

..of course they say that ignorance is bliss thus if you own a high mileage (>80k miles) car then by all means continue to naively and incorrectly assume that just because it's still running then it's in ' just run in ' internal condition ... it won't be...

Thus I repeat that anyone buying one of these that hasn't had an engine rebuild or doesn't have a spare £10k in the bank is taking a massive risk; if you believe this to be controversial this says more about your lack of knowledge than mine...
 
Sounds about right to me.

MC
 
GMG said:
...wasz...so you know more than Hartech do you?

Don't you mean resigner?

I thought wasz was agreeing with you :dont know:
 
I am in agreement with others 22k to 25k and if it had been a rebuilt 3.8 25k to 28k
whether guys like it or not the Hartech full 6 rebuild is desirable and DOES command a premium over a stock car purely based on the fact that people will pay a bit more for a car that had the issues addressed and there are not so many of them up for sale. . :thumb:
 
...so sorry Wasz...my retort was intended for resigner...forgive me :D ...and thanks Alex ...
 
Phil 997 said:
I am in agreement with others 22k to 25k and if it had been a rebuilt 3.8 25k to 28k
whether guys like it or not the Hartech full 6 rebuild is desirable and DOES command a premium over a stock car purely based on the fact that people will pay a bit more for a car that had the known issues addressed however small the % risk of these issues is it still concerns people due to the huge amount of conflicting views.
Also there are not so many Hartech full6 rebuilds up for sale. . :thumb:

My gen1 was a tip and with a sprint booster fitted and driving it most of the time on the paddle/rockers I loved it, but I do understand the manuals are best on these cars argument.
 
Here we go again with the "chocolate engine" debate..........
It seems to me that the truth - i.e. the actual percentage of engines with IMS and/or bore score problems - is something that isn't revealed by anecdotal evidence.

Everyone has their own bias; GMG has his, because he's had an engine fail on him. Hartech have theirs, because they have a service to sell. Others with engines that have been to Jupiter and back will think the issue is exaggerated.

Given that there's no independently audited "fail rate", I suppose it comes down to one's appetite for risk. That, and price, of course.
 
I've been to Hartech.......on numerous occasions......and seen the amount of cars racked up with bore scored engines.

That's enough evidence for me to make an informed decision on my next purchase. :cap:

Top of the 'sticky' hit parade in the 997 FAQ section is here for anyone wanting to educate themselves when purchasing a gen 1 997:

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=65761

Vote with your feet members.

.....and Hartech write this stuff because - "they have a service to sell." :dont know:


Edit: taken from that sticky:

bazhart said:
So – put simply – I think that if the owner of one of these models – on a spirited drive - could not then resist the temptation to floor the car away from standstill (at say lights or junctions) - then I think we could have the worst possible scenario for piston/cylinder scoring at that precise moment.

This would also explain why – once the models are up to temperature and having had the speed gradually increased around say a circuit or long unrestricted roads (say in Germany) they seem to be OK despite the extra strain put on the engines (because thermostats are more open, radiator cooling is good, engine speed is high so oil spray etc is good et)c.

I agree such a proposition is almost madness – I can almost hear you all shouting 'what the bl**dy hell do you think I bought it for" - why would anyone buy such a car if they cannot at least feel that acceleration and enjoy that performance (not to mention the satisfaction of showing everyone just how quick the car is when in reality none of us can safely or legally demonstrate anything like the cars top speeds anywhere in the UK – but we can out accelerate most others). Surely that exact scenario is partly why we bought it and high on the list of the pleasure we get from driving it and possibly the only occasion we can stuff it to other drivers! I am not against that – in fact I also love it myself (truth be known).

So I am not proposing you all drive around like old men in a Ford Fiesta – (I am of that age – but still not a slow driver either)but I am just suggesting that – it makes sense to me – that weighing up all the evidence and connecting it to solid technical analysis - this is the most likely moment of failure and therefore – it could be that if you could simply accelerate from a stationary rest - a little more gently – under slightly less throttle opening -for a few seconds until the coolant speed, oil pressure and thermostat opening times and the balance of the oil and lubrication system have equalised again – it may just save the expense and disappointment of an engine failure.

Baz

I'll not ask the salesman how the previous owner drove it before he's likely to fill me with BS.
 
Alex, I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. I don't doubt Baz Hart's expertise for one moment, but of course he has a bias. You know, what with all those "cars racked up with bore scored engines". With that greeting you each day at work, why wouldn't you have a bias, seems obvious :dont know:

My points were simply:
1) no-one, Mr Hart included, is independent
2) independently audited data doesn't exist AFAIK.
 
Point I was making is it is not internet scaremongering that there's a serious flaw in the design of m96/m97 3.6 and above engine whereby certain areas get far hotter than others due to the cooling system causing it to score bores. It is fact. I just want members old and new, to be perfectly aware of that before they end up with an iro £10k bill by not knowing what they're doing. What resigner said about GMG was wrong and IMHO bellow the belt...........and he calls me a troll! :eek:

Happy Friday :thumbs:
 
Counter Of Beans said:
Alex, I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. I don't doubt Baz Hart's expertise for one moment, but of course he has a bias. You know, what with all those "cars racked up with bore scored engines". With that greeting you each day at work, why wouldn't you have a bias, seems obvious :dont know:

My points were simply:
1) no-one, Mr Hart included, is independent
2) independently audited data doesn't exist AFAIK.


Ok with that in mind

I can run a survey as i am independent

So what are the questions ?

as we also have to consider not just the basis has your engine failed but the different level of repairs and upgrade

So give me the options and I can start to formulate something
 

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