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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: chasing the targa noises! Reply with quote

Evening, my quest to quieten down the targa roof continues and now I am focusing on the sun blind. with the motor cover off, there is rubber tube around the "pipes", I am sure these are tight against the panel the motor mounts to as they dont feel easy to spin, this makes me think they could be a squeak source! therefore i am looking to remove them but as they are tight, once off I dont think they will be easy to remove. Has anyone seen this before or offer any ideas as to why they may be there before I remove them?

thanks
Chris
 



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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8364
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One way to eliminate them as a source of noise is to do the same as you would for noisy suspension rubbers.

Drive, making sure the noise is present, then one by one spray a little WD-40 to see if any actually quieten down?
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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, will give that a go, unfortunately there are a lot of noises so I cant be sure this is an actual source but suspect it will be, good thought on the wd40!
 
  
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Diamaduk
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Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Posts: 9



PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was posted a few months ago, very useful. http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=129967
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rubber tubes on the roller blind cable tubes are not standard , they will not stop any noise as the tubes are fixed and basically cant cause a noise .

Get rid of them and see where you go from there .

I have yet to have a noise that is caused by any part of the blind mechanism and ive done a few of these .

See the link above as i listed many places there .. i would say open the glass roof all the way .. look at the very front and the plastic guide rails for the wind deflector .. lub these .. i use Crytox .. a porsche lub .. use it on the wind deflector stops .. so each side of the glass section .. its the bit that pushes against the blind .

Basically any plastic part at the front .

Rule of thumb .. glass and old rubber seals make a noise .. usually a creak .. you need to crytox where both meet .

If you can do a sound clip i can advise a bit better .. move the phone around whilst doing it .. not all noises are actually the roof .

If it helps .. ive rebuilt 28 roof systems on these and fixed countless noises and water leaks.
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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks gents, I have been following all the guides and trying to lube as indicated several times. I have found a willing flexible person to sit in the back and start putting sticky circles where the noises are coming from so I can start chasing down.

One rattle does seem to be the glass panel itslef when open - it moves maybe 1-2mm in the "runners". If I hold it, one rattle definately goes away!
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wear in the mechanism can cause a rattle .. your kinda stuck on what you can do here .. you need to drop the fabric liner on which ever side .. best way .. pull out from the rear to get at the t25 screw at the rear ..

Undo screw .. the rest unclips and pull back at the front .. you should now see the linkage .. look at the front and you will see a copper coloured square block in a metal frame .. some .. well .. basically axle grease on that one part only .. they can rattle ... no grease on the cables or runners though .. you are just trying to dampen any noises from this part alone .

Adjustment can also help but thats a bit more complicated as it involves removeing a roof motor .. the n/s/r one and adjusting the position of the mico switch .. it will alter the position the roof closes at .. when set right the mechanism will be in a totally upright position and apply the the max force on it ..

its kinda hard to explain im afraid .

The more normal noises are .. open the roof .. look under the wind deflector .. x3 plastic blocks .. lub these , lub the x2 rubber clear plastic blocks each side .. same area .. on the roof .. the glass bit then theres x2 points each side that the roof pushes on the wind deflector .. often a plastic part of this is missing .. you cant buy it but lub both of these .

The doorseals each side .. rain x on the rubbers and on the windows were it touches the rubbers .. leave to dry ..

Open the rear glass hatch .. lub the rubber seal , look at the hinges .. x2 plastic blockes .. lub them .. lub the rear rubber stops you adjust for the rear glass ..

To be honest there are many places these cause noises .. my suggestion .. Northway or Prescion for roof problems .



http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=116450
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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again for the replies, I will have another look on friday when I am off. Unfortunately I am in aberdeen so will have to tackle this on my own!

I will look at dropping the fabric liners.

One thing I have noticed, I am not sure the roof is closing fully, its almost 2mm lower than you would think it should be to make a seal - I will take a closer look at this on friday as well!
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The roof does open and close ok i take it ? you dont have to give it a helping hand ?

Its just that if the roof doesnt close fully it will rattle like a bitch.
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She's not going until july 2020 though .



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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no it opens and closes smoothly , i think the rattle is caused by play in something rather than not open / closed fully. the rattle does seem more when it is fully open.
 
  
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cbriggs1978
Newbie


Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort looks like you are spot on, with the front curtain removed (I droped the bloody T25 screw into the gap - took 35 mins to retrieve that!!), and lowering the roof slightly, this rattles when ever you nudge the glass a little. Will grease it up like you say. That is the large rattle when it is open.

THe rear one seems to be in the correct position - the roof is in contact with the very front seal.

I will check the near side ones tomorrow.
 



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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok .. i can see the problem ..

Rule of thumb .. you DONT grease the cables or any part that will allow grease to get onto the cables , (yes i know some people do but i dont ).

You can use axle grease on the copper bush to try and stop the rattle .. but it will be loud as the roof isnt shut properly .

This gets a little confuseing as i need pictures of both the front linkage (showing the copper part ) to be accurate .. we do sometimes twist the frame to stop noises and without a picture of the other side i cant be 100 % sure .. BUT ..

Im going with , and you have already mentioned the roof seems low at the front .. well im going with its not fully closeing.

The steel rod is not at 90 degrees .. it should be .

When we twist it then one is at 90 and the other about 15 degrees less .

This doesnt really just happen so if the noise has slowly gotten worse over a period of time then i have a hunch

You will need to remove the very rear panel under the hatch window .. its were the emergency tools are .. you will need to remove the hatch lock mechanisim and then the roof motor .. the one behind the lock mech .

You might have access without removeing the roof motor but with the lock removed .. i think so .. its a T15 or a T20 from memory .

Never remove both motors at the same time .. basically .. dont do it .

There is a micro switch there , you adjust it to alter the closed position of the roof .. it may well have dirt buildup on it and is activateing sooner than it should .. my best guess .. clean it and move it so that it touches the cable a little later .. micro switch closed = roof will stop moving .. shut in other words ..

I would like a couple more mm on the adjustment ..

What you are looking for .. and what i have seen .. the picture of the front roof rod .. its not at 90 degrees .. it should be .. we are back at twisting the frame here but from your picture its not right .

read this a few times so you are happy .. ask any questions you want before doing this .. its not hard but when you havent done this its a bit difficult to get it right .. if unsure then a garage .. although i have no idea who in your neck of the woods can work on a Targa roof ..

Im about as far away from you as its possible to get and the only other place i know is Northway .. but they are in reading so not far from me .. sigh .

BTW .. a gap between the copper bush and the plate is normal .. ignore that .. its the angle of the steel rod you need to work on .

Lubrication for seals .. plastic wedges at the front .. i use crytox .. a porsche lube .. but gummi fledge will do just fine .. never use a grease or a spray grease .

Always try and stop any grease getting to the cables .
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She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

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Now At An Indy.
 



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cbriggs1978
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Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant thank you enough for the time you have spent replying to my messages. I will take your advice and read again a few times in the morning and look at the other side as well.

When you look for the roof to be closed, can i just double check, on the picture attached, is it this edge you are looking to be vertical? The picture was taken when the roof was "fully closed", I absolutely see if I move the switch this edge will go "more" vertical and close the roof more.


For the front copper part, I had opened the roof slightly when i took the picture because when it is fully closed, this part doesnt rattle but as soon as the roof is open slightly (and when it is fully open), it does rattle if you tap the glass.

Sorry to keep asking questions - you did say to ask!!!!

Aberdeen is a long way from anywhere but I am sure there will be an opportunity to get this car to you or Northway in the next 12 months as we have family near reading and the company I work for has an office in Uxbridge - I just need to get a secondment there for a few weeks Very Happy
 



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cbriggs1978
Newbie


Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought.... Can I manually wind the roof 'more closed' before removing a motor and adjusting a switch, just to see if it does quieten it down a bit. Or does this knock the mechanism out of sync? I can wind both manually at the same time
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok .. i'm with you now .. the copper part rattles when the roof is open or slightly open ..

Axle grease on the copper part and the plastic runners of that part is all you can try .. these parts can be replaced with the roof in situ but unfortunately they are part of the mechanism kit and as such its £700 !

Make sure the grease won't go any further than that part , you don't want it on the runners just behind the plate .

You have other noises with the roof shut so you don't have to worry too much about adjusting the rear micro switch ..

But i will confirm , you can manually by turning both motors get the roof to close further .. don't forget .. push the allen keys in THEN turn .. if you dont push in then you can break the manual part of the motor.

Again , you are correct the circled part should be at 90 degrees but i would check the other side as well .. if both like that you could adjust it .. but i think for now just give it a small turn manually to push it a bit further forward then road test it .

Be advised .. if you do adjust the roof to close further you will need to cut the cable ties on the front glass drain tubes .. tube next to the T25 screw you undid and reposition them so that they are not too tight ... then re cable tie them .

If you haven't already then .. Rain X the front window glass were it touches the door seal rubber as this WILL cause noises ..

Gummi fledge the tailgate seal and the x2 rubber stops at the rear , open glass at the front and Gummi the rear seal on the upright which will be over the glass when it's open .. do both sides of this .

Then clean up the mess that Gummi leaves every where lol .


Thank you for your Donation .. its very much appreciated worship
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target see Here

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

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Now At An Indy.
 
  
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cbriggs1978
Newbie


Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort,

I took some more photos last night. The nearside is definitely not as far "closed" as the offside of the roof. This can been seen by how much the roof pushes against the seals on both sides and the angle of the rods.

Is it possible to wind one side of the roof more closed than the other by just turning one motor manually or do you have to do both at the same time?

I have a contact with some thick grease to put in the front brass sliders - but as these are changable without removing the roof, if that doesnt work.... is it the brass blocks that wear - i would consider getting a local fabrication shop to make some replacements if that were the case!

Thanks for the ongoing assistance!

Regards

Chris
 



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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok .. hmm .. that's not quite right there ..

Did you try and manually move the roof a bit further forward and if so did the roof close fully on the n/s and did the rattles stop ?

If not that's the first thing to try .

I have a feeling here that the rear micro switch has got dirt build up on it and is perhaps operating slightly before it has done in the past .

Basically the cables cant go out of adjustment unless they slip or have been incorrectly adjusted ..

Slipping happens when the roof pretty much jams and you'll get a horrible grinding noise from a motor as it slips on the cables ..

Your roof has been working fine and hasnt been touched so logically im thinking its the switch at fault .

Try the manual approach .. if it shuts fine at that point then clean and adjust the rear micro switch .. mark its original position before removing so you have a reference .

After that get back to me Smile
_________________
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target see Here

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

7pm - 9pm

Now At An Indy.
 
  
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cbriggs1978
Newbie


Joined: 02 Sep 2018
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply

I tried closing manually a little but it didn't move and it was with what I would consider a reasonable amount of force.

I wonder it it just isn't in correctly as the while roof has been out in the past (before I owned it). It was sold in 2010 as the roof didn't work and the guy didn't want to pay to get it fixed. And there are scratches in some strange places!
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7202
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not constructive I know, but every time I see the thread title in the new posts I think that somebody loves the sound of a Targa and is trying to recreate it in a non-targa.

MC
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7135
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The manual method can be tricky if you have never done it before .. the allen keys must be pushed in first , this disengages the motor gear and you can then turn them .. keeping both allen keys pushed in at the same time .. you can open and close the roof this way .

Don't force the turn though .. if it doesn't move them leave it .

Im still of the opinion the roof can close further .. the reason is both arms can go past the 90 degree although to be fair not by much .. also ..

We have limited options here .. i would rather confirm that micro switch adjustment / cleaning or manually moving the roof doesn't work first as the only other option is trying to adjust the cables on the fly and that's not something even i like to do .


Roof out in the past .. that explains what i saw on one of the front mechanisms .. its damaged .. not to the point of making a difference i feel but it shows something bad has happened in the past ..

I've seen that marking before shall we say .

This is one of those jobs that even if you were 150 miles away i would be saying i want to see it .. but where you are then that's just not feasible and its frustrating for me as i can say a hell of a lot more if i can see the car .


Do me a favour .. remove the rear panel to get at the motors then take a couple of pictures .. 1 in each corner ( drain pipe area ) and one back a bit to give an overview .. large image please so i can zoom in .

If you can't post them here due to size then email me please .


De.Mort@virginmedia.com
_________________
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target see Here

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

7pm - 9pm

Now At An Indy.
 
  
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