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MattCPR
Newbie


Joined: 07 Mar 2019
Posts: 19



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great responses 👍🏻

To be honest I haven’t seen a car in the flesh that I want to buy, I’ve just been lurking on Autotrader/Pistonheads/EBay.

I’ve seen a couple I’m keen on but worried about buying from a private seller for the issues that you have all mentioned (plus getting a borescope done on a private car may be difficult).

I will post up a link to a car I am interested in just for you all to give me your opinion. Not that I’m about to get a train to but it but it will give me some insight as to what’s potentially right/wrong with these cars.

Thanks again.

Last edited by MattCPR on Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IggyMunro wrote:
Regarding the IMS bearing failure that can affect earlier cars, this is can be a catastrophic failure if it goes so I consider it more important than bore score. When I bought my 2004 C2S 3.6 6 months ago I knew the clutch needed replaced because it was very heavy so I had the IMS done (and the oil seal) at the same time. in fact it was not far off a minor service so I had that done too to save on oil & Northway charged around £2000 for parts & labour which I thought was well worth it for the peace of mind. When I bought the car I factored that cost in.

Bore Scoring is less likely in my model compared to others, although it could happen, but I am prepared to risk that for the chance to drive such an amazing car. Gen 2 911's are way more expensive & were not in my budget so it was either a Gen 2 Cayman or Gen 1 911, which for me was a very easy choice! If you are very risk averse maybe consider a Gen 2 Cayman, they are brilliant cars & no bore scoring, but that does open that age old can of worms comparing 911s to Caymans..... Laughing




Thats a very sensible way you have approached your 997 ownership Thumb Thumb
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TonyC911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 06 Jun 2016
Posts: 329
Location: High Wycombe, Bucks


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IggyMunro wrote:
When I bought my 2004 C2S 3.6


Sorry to be a pedant, but something is not right here... Dont know
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IggyMunro
Newbie


Joined: 28 Sep 2018
Posts: 3



PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops my subconscious yearnings must have put the S in there Smile

Thanks TonyC911!
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15340
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyC911 wrote:
IggyMunro wrote:
When I bought my 2004 C2S 3.6


Sorry to be a pedant, but something is not right here... Dont know


Yeah

C2 3.6 or C2S 3.8 ?

From previous posts I know that Iggy has a manual car so it's not the old Tiptronic S thing.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Grin I bet Iggys car is a 3.6 tipS Lots of guys get confused between a TipS and the 3.8 S
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah , Terry dashed that idea then Grin Grin in that case maybe a typo but yes the 3.6 is a C2 Thumb Thumb
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6990
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="timbo1811"]
Luddite wrote:
MattCPR,

I suspect low mileage garage queens that have spent the majority of their life locked up then taken out and ..err...enjoyed, might suffer more than those used more regularly...?




Something I don't understand is, how does a car which is used less stand a greater chance of borescoring?


The theory would be that a ‘garage queen’ will spend a greater % of its total running time starting from cold when most wear occurs and relatively less protected by a coating of oil.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15192
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MattCPR wrote:
Thanks for all the great responses 👍🏻

To be honest I haven’t seen a car in the flesh that I want to buy, I’ve just been lurking on Autotrader/Pistonheads/EBay.

I’ve seen a couple I’m keen on but worried about buying from a private seller for the issues that you have all mentioned (plus getting a borescope done on a private car may be difficult).

I will post up a link to a car I am interested in just for you all to give me your opinion. Not that I’m about to get a train to but it but it will give me some insight as to what’s potentially right/wrong with these cars.

Thanks again.



My 2P firstly I was a bit taken aback as the pic of the PCM showed the destination as FERNDOWN which is where I live Surprised anyway onto the car. nice alloys , decent spec inc PSE only missing heated seats , it has the sports round steering wheel. mileage is ave for the year on these cars and price seems right . As this cars down south ,I am going to PM you the number of a trusted mobile Porsche trained tech who can do a PPI and borescope on it or infact any cars based down south. for you and give you a full written report on it. Thumb
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Last edited by Phil 997 on Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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villaman
Newbie


Joined: 05 Mar 2019
Posts: 47
Location: North Staffordshire


PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Great advice Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
villaman wrote:


Hi Phil,

I read your comments with great interest...very informative and interesting indeed.

Sorry to read of your gen 2 rebuild......my I please ask what caused this in a gen 2 car....?

I understood them to be largely immune to going bang.

May I to ask what mods you've done to you car.



The story of Phil's 997.2 issues are documented in this thread.

Make yourself a cup of tea and settle down for a long read.

---> http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=129386&start=40&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=



Thanks T8 and Phil 997....i'll have a read up.
 
  
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Luddite
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 252
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no wish to take this thread in a different direction but think it only polite to try to answer a question when asked..?

Timbo1811, sorry not to respond to your question before now though I note that Robertb has provided a basic insight on thinking similar to my own, but as is my habit I am happy to expand a bit...(-:

I am NO expert.

Garage Queens is a term that is NOT used by ME in any way as derogatory, more a means of categorising rarely used machinery.

I suspect a great deal depends upon the storage conditions, AND use the machine is put to when driven which can vary considerably from owner to owner..? Being a sports car, what chance it may well be enthusiastically driven, which would be no problem for a 911 if time is taken to allow it to warm up properly prior to opening the throttles up a tad...?

If a great drive has been enjoyed orperhaps just a long slow drag in traffic, the engine will be well up to temperature by the time it is returned to the garage to lie for how long before next fired up, so plenty of time for all that HOT and now somewhat thinner oil to drain off back to the sump away from the critical areas... perhaps..? Modern oils claim to hang around in such areas more than the older oils, though I have no proof of that.

To reduce the effect of lack of lube in vital areas after lay up it seems reasonable to inhibit ignition and spin the engine over on the starter until oil pressure builds, on rebuilt engines I used to have all the spark plugs out to minimise the strain on the battery and starter motor too, even though lubed during the build process...

On LARGE engines such as generators it is normal to have an electric pump in the oil circuit to pre pressurise the oil throughout the engine checking the oil pressure prior to hitting the start button, though this procedure is bypassed in emergency start-ups.... Boy you should hear those big ends rattle in protest.. scary stuff indeed..!!

Just thinking in type as ever... Question
 
  
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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1740
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luddite wrote:

To reduce the effect of lack of lube in vital areas after lay up it seems reasonable to inhibit ignition and spin the engine over on the starter until oil pressure builds, on rebuilt engines I used to have all the spark plugs out to minimise the strain on the battery and starter motor too, even though lubed during the build process...


Good advice Thumb Particularly on these engines, I do the same with my Ducati, having one horizontal cylinfer and one upright one, oil needs to be circulated as it only gets started once every 3 or 4 weeks these days!
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Luddite
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 252
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob I am pleased that you think there may be some sense in that which I typed, thanks for responding.

As I typed, I am NOT an expert, and currently do not own a Porsche... unfortunately... and my automotive experience is somewhat dated, perhaps well out of date...hmm.

Just that after the above entry I put a bit more thought into the possible lack of lube in critical areas on start up, not just in terms of lengthy lay up, but at every start up..I suspect an engines ability to start-up almost the instant the key is turned or button pressed, can perhaps be less than ideal in some situations..?

Even pre digital electronic control and EFI, some engines were hard wired in a way that by accident or design inhibited them firing up until the starter motor had spun the engine over long enough to build up oil pressure...... Which may have both advantage and disadvantage built in...?

I guess much depends upon the systems original design stratedgy, which may in actual operation achieve unintended advantage or disadvantage that may not contemplated as normal operation by the system designer...? In digital programming that might be identified as a glitch if found to be a disadvantage...? (-:

I suspect there is no manufacturer that builds in a control stratedgy to cope with the average of operation that any garage queen might reasonably be expected to experience during it`s lifetime...?

Consider if you will that a simple oil pressure switch can be used to cut the electricity supply to a fuel pump.. if that pump derives its electricity supply through that oil pressure switch. The design stratedgy perhaps being as a safety measure to prevent fuel being pumped out of a damaged fuel line or similar after an accident where the ign has not been switched off, but the engine has stopped thus the oil pressure has dropped and the oil pressure switch seeing no pressure opens it`s contacts to cut the electric supply to the fuel pump...Reducing the chances of fuel being pumped out of the tank adding to the accidental situation perhaps.

Simple stuff..? But for a garage queen situation if there are carburettors involved depending on the amount of time it has lain up, the fuel in the float chambers may well have evaporated, and what chance the battery is in tip top condition and fully charged...if not.. the battery has quite a task ahead and the design stratedgy to restrict fuel spillage in an accident may well restrict the chances of a start up..?

Before the engine will fire up, the battery has to have enough power to spin the engine long enough to build up oil pressure enough to close the oil pressure switch in order for it to switch on the fuel pump which itself then takes TIME to pressurise the fuel system to fill up the empty carburettor fuel bowls and allow fuel to then reach the combustion chamber.... The hope is that in the time it takes to achieve all those processes the battery still has power enough to keep going to generate enough compression AND spark to fire up that first cylinder.... after all that TIME the engine may be running...or not ?

I suspect not too many of you will have carbs on your Porsches but fuel injection is likewise dependant on fuel pressure and I also suspect that pressure may decay relative to TIME since the engine last ran..? Though in EFI there may be non return valves between the fuel pump output and injectors to maintain pressure in the fuel rail to provide quick restarts, which may or may not be a good thing, dependant on circumstances..?

The safety stratedgy seems advantageous but perhaps less so for garage queens when initial start up after lengthy lay up is the owners desire.. the control stratedgy may actually be thought of a real nuisance in terms of being a potential battery killer, spoiling your chance of getting out on the road on that first sunny day in months.....?

HOWEVER... if you think that you last switched the engine off some TIME back when the oil was hot, thin and over time may have left a few vulnerable areas of possible metal to metal contact in the engine..... Now wishing to fire it up...... with the aforementioned oil pressure switch inhibiting that process until oil pressure has been restored would perhaps NOW seem to be an ideal...?

I seem to remember reading some time back that the equivalent of two tons (imperial) of force may be measured between big end bearing and crankshaft journal during the ign stroke. Amazing the benefit of a just few pounds of oil pressure can make...?

I make NO claim to know what control stratedgy exists or what it might have been designed to achieve through whatever switching processes mechanical, digital or more likely a mix of both will exist in your Porsches, but I do suspect it would be interesting to know...?

Just thinking in type, claiming zero expertise..More than happy to be corrected as I come here to learn.
 
  
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1212



PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
MattCPR wrote:
Thanks for all the great responses 👍🏻

To be honest I haven’t seen a car in the flesh that I want to buy, I’ve just been lurking on Autotrader/Pistonheads/EBay.

I’ve seen a couple I’m keen on but worried about buying from a private seller for the issues that you have all mentioned (plus getting a borescope done on a private car may be difficult).

I will post up a link to a car I am interested in just for you all to give me your opinion. Not that I’m about to get a train to but it but it will give me some insight as to what’s potentially right/wrong with these cars.

Thanks again.



My 2P firstly I was a bit taken aback as the pic of the PCM showed the destination as FERNDOWN which is where I live Surprised anyway onto the car. nice alloys , decent spec inc PSE only missing heated seats , it has the sports round steering wheel. mileage is ave for the year on these cars and price seems right . As this cars down south ,I am going to PM you the number of a trusted mobile Porsche trained tech who can do a PPI and borescope on it or infact any cars based down south. for you and give you a full written report on it. Thumb


Did he PM you a link?
 
  
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