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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: 3.4 engine seized a few questions / put me out my misery :-( Reply with quote

Hi all

had a nightmare of a weekend nooo

my car was booked in for a full service and to have a coolant leak sorted and once again having another split on a dansk flexi joint sorted last friday

i was already expecting it to be an expensive weekend however....

the day prior i did about 400 miles in it but as i went to start it that morning there was a screeching sort of sound after it fired up!
which in my mind was possibly the starter motor giving up the ghost (has had a few slow cranks when hot over the last couple of weeks)
anyway on the return leg of my jouney after fueling up i went to start it and it went to turn over but felt like the whole engine was going to turn over with it
second attempt it fired but same again it felt a really heavy turn over which worried me
i got out listened to it and it was ticking over just fine and got me home with no fault at all

the following morning i go to start it and all i got was a single click
quickly got my jump leads out and still just a single click
not wanting to miss my slot at the garage i then tried to bump start it
on attempting this on letting out the clutch it locked its wheels

so thinking it was just me not building up enough speed i got my dad round and we used his car to tow it
and the same happend
i tried rocking it backwards and forwards in gear and the engine is seized solid
i did try hitting the starter motor a few times
and after that the click did sound more convincing that it was going to turn

i then got it towed to Zentrum in Nottingham obviously expected the diagnosis to be the worst

i was late for my slot so they are stripping bits off it today/tuesday to see what is wrong

but they have already told me they they removed the sump and thats clean with no trace of metal but they can see the flywheel is trashed (this is only a couple of years old lightweight flywheel)

so my question is could a stuck starter motor do that damage?
i'm aware i've not helped matters trying to bump start it if so

and secondly if this is likely what has seized the engine
what are the chances that 2 attempts to bump start it and it locking the wheels has trashed the crankshaft/ anything else whilst doing so?

sorry for the long post i'm obviously pretty gutted that a rebuild may be needed Sad
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MisterCorn
Long Beach


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 6596
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure that Mike will be able to tell you pretty quickly. Best hope is that something on the flywheel failed which has locked it up from there, no engine damage. Could be snapped crankshaft which might 'just' mean a new crankshaft and no other engine damage.

Fingers crossed for you, somewhere between a new crank and a new engine is my guess. Good used 3.4l cranks are unfortunately like rocking horse sh!t.

MC
 
  
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alex yates
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15228
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is this is all flywheel related and your engine is fine.
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2789


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah as MC and Alex says sounds to me like the flywheel teeth are maybe damaged and holding onto the starter cog. Maybe the starter got lazy at retracting (that would be the screeching sound you heard).

Was it an alloy flywheel?

If thats the case just chuck an OE dual mass on. Hopefully no damage to the crank or main bearing from the bump start attempt.
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alex yates
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15228
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't see any damage occuring bumping it as the only thing in motion is the gearbox and the locked flywheel has taken the brunt of that. No load would've been put on the engine. If amything, the gearbox/diff/driveshafts may be damaged but I doubt it.
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Marky911
Watkins Glen


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2090



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmare Lee.

Hopefully it’s whats mentioned above and the engine has in fact survived.

Fingers crossed for you.
 
  
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the phone call

@wasz It is a alloy flywheel I believe (from rpm technic that they use on their csr's)
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996lee wrote:
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the phone call

@wasz It is a alloy flywheel I believe (from rpm technic that they use on their csr's)


So alloy being softer than steel the teeth on the flywheel could have been damaged by the teeth of the starter which failed to retract properly, and then the next time you start the damaged teeth hold onto the starter even more and then the starter gets bent / stuck / whatever seizing the transmission.

Thats my internet diagnosis Very Happy

Either that or its the other internet diagnosis of AARAGH IMS BEARING FAILURE and OMG BORE SCORE but I doubt it.
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alex yates
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 15228
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second my learned friend with that diagnosis.
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right had a call off mike at zentrum
it was indeed the started motor seized solid that had mangled the teeth of the flywheel
and there is no damage to the crank or anything else
and also good news was my coolant leak just needed a new jubilee clip to sort Thumb

now i have absolutely loved my lightweight flywheel and the prices are around the the same as a dual mass so do i go for another Question
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alex yates
Le Mans
Le Mans


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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only if you sort your sticky starter motor out 1st.
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Only if you sort your sticky starter motor out 1st.


yep they are fitting me a new one Thumb
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maldren
Österreich


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 973



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I fully agree with Wasz, I would expect that the ring gear on the flywheel is steel and shrunk onto the alloy flywheel, cast iron flywheels are usually like this.

If the flywheel is undamaged, it may be possible to just have a new ring gear fitted and saving quite a lot - try asking the manufacturer.
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maldren wrote:
Not sure I fully agree with Wasz, I would expect that the ring gear on the flywheel is steel and shrunk onto the alloy flywheel, cast iron flywheels are usually like this.

If the flywheel is undamaged, it may be possible to just have a new ring gear fitted and saving quite a lot - try asking the manufacturer.


i'll dig out the pic i took of it when it arrived (if photobucket still exists now)but if i remember correctly it was a one piece flywheel
i may be mistaken though
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Hertsdriver
Newbie


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 30



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It definitely will be a steel gear ring around the flywheel, it wouldnt last more than 3 or 4 goes if the teeth were alloy. New starter ring onto the flywheel, new starter and off you go Smile
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the pic i took when it arrived


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deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5937
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i first started reading this i was thinking coolant in a cylinder .. hydraulic lock .. to be a siezed starter motor .. i can honestly say in 37 years of fixing cars i have never seen nor herd of this .. and thats every make of car as ive only been on Porsche for 15 years .

Pretty good news compaired to what it might have been .

Now then lightweight flywheel ..

Ill just say that i think Porsche did an awfull lot of R&D on these cars in the design phase .. they decided on a duel mass flywheel ..

Other companys decided they new better and did this light weight flywheel .. im not convinvced these companys new more than Porsche or tested it as much ..

But as always i leave that sort of descion up to the customer .. i fit the parts Porsche have specified and leave it at that .

End of the day though .. phew !!!
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kas750
Reims


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4279
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:


End of the day though .. phew !!!


Indeed! Thumb
 
  
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jond58
Silverstone


Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 143



PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dual mass is designed to deal with vibration, flexing and the torque delivered to the gearbox. How did it drive with a solid flywheel? Every car Ive driven with one that should have been on dual mass was noisy and vibey and generally a pain in the arse!!
 
  
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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 685
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jond58 wrote:
The dual mass is designed to deal with vibration, flexing and the torque delivered to the gearbox. How did it drive with a solid flywheel? Every car Ive driven with one that should have been on dual mass was noisy and vibey and generally a pain in the arse!!


I'll admit it's probably an acquired taste and did chatter a little and if you let the revs drop too low in gear then yes you got some vibration
But I think it was worth it for how much quicker it revs
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