thecarfixer
Monza
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X51 bits, but not the plenum eh..
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2001 C4 project car
- Thread starter MisterCorn
- Start date
You have some parts of an X51 , inlet mainifold should be different .
Ive never done the upgrade but i belive its a pretty expensive one to have done at the time .
Some info here ..
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I also think Dammit has an X51 inlet mainifold which is spare .
Ive never done the upgrade but i belive its a pretty expensive one to have done at the time .
Some info here ..
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I also think Dammit has an X51 inlet mainifold which is spare .
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 8 Jan 2011
- Messages
- 9,410
thecarfixer said:
Not the exhaust either. My guess is it was put in as a long engine when the original engine failed 20k miles ago. I suspect the person who bought the engine didn't realise it was different. It certainly wasn't mentioned when I bought it.
MC
infrasilver
Moderator
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- 4 Oct 2010
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- 9,934
That's my thoughts too,
In the early days, Porsche offered an upgraded oiling package, dubbed M9601, 'Additional Oil Suction System 996' this included the X51 scavenge pump, suction pipe and baffled sump.
Back then, the pump was only circa £500 so not a hugely expensive upgrade. - The kit became quickly NLA, but the individual parts could still be purchased, as they can today, at a hugely inflated price.
I have also seen several early factory replacement engines fitted with just the additional X51 scavenge pump, almost as if Porsche recognised the issue was oil starvation and didn't want the owner to suffer again so the pump was fitted.
One of these could cover off how you have the pump but nothing else from the X51.
Onto the scavenge pump, I was planning on giving you guys the heads up on this once I had further info but as you have found a pump now is a good a time as any.
Your Scavenge is an early original pump, (000) part number, it looks different from the now available (001).
I do not know why Porsche changed the part and updated the part number, or when it happened, currently trying to get info out of Porsche.
The German pump where the issue was found was manufactured in week 30, 2007, serial number N35 in France by Pierburg.
The pump I bought from my OPC was also manufactured week 30, 2007, serial number N53, again by Pierburg.
So these would be the same batch and manufactured circa 6 years after the 3.4 X51 ceased production.
Whether the revised pump runs backwards at this point I do not know for sure, but its a concern
It was only found as the chap in Germany had a leak following his install, if he had not had a leak he would not have checked and as oppose to running with an additional scavenge improving the oiling, he would have been running with one less than standard! - Assuming that there is an issue.
If any of these pumps have been replaced/installed how would you check operation? You would assume that its a Porsche part and that everything was ok, fit and forget.
As mentioned I had a Porsche tech, at the OPC check my pump and he thinks that its running backwards, so will blow oil as oppose to suck oil.
I will/have asked Grant to check with oil to confirm.
If it is running backwards, there is only one other additional scavenge available, its an aftermarket setup by a company called TTP in Germany, its fundamentally two piggy backed standard scavenge pumps.
However getting any info from TTP has proven very difficult!!
Would be very interested to see if your early pump runs correctly. - I am finding it difficult to believe that Porsche developed a product to fix a specific issue that they were very aware of only for said product not to work! - But this is how it is looking.
If anyones interested I have the factory install manual for a 3.4 X51, it details all of the changes, I also have the factory parts list.
Back then, the pump was only circa £500 so not a hugely expensive upgrade. - The kit became quickly NLA, but the individual parts could still be purchased, as they can today, at a hugely inflated price.
I have also seen several early factory replacement engines fitted with just the additional X51 scavenge pump, almost as if Porsche recognised the issue was oil starvation and didn't want the owner to suffer again so the pump was fitted.
One of these could cover off how you have the pump but nothing else from the X51.
Onto the scavenge pump, I was planning on giving you guys the heads up on this once I had further info but as you have found a pump now is a good a time as any.
Your Scavenge is an early original pump, (000) part number, it looks different from the now available (001).
I do not know why Porsche changed the part and updated the part number, or when it happened, currently trying to get info out of Porsche.
The German pump where the issue was found was manufactured in week 30, 2007, serial number N35 in France by Pierburg.
The pump I bought from my OPC was also manufactured week 30, 2007, serial number N53, again by Pierburg.
So these would be the same batch and manufactured circa 6 years after the 3.4 X51 ceased production.
Whether the revised pump runs backwards at this point I do not know for sure, but its a concern
It was only found as the chap in Germany had a leak following his install, if he had not had a leak he would not have checked and as oppose to running with an additional scavenge improving the oiling, he would have been running with one less than standard! - Assuming that there is an issue.
If any of these pumps have been replaced/installed how would you check operation? You would assume that its a Porsche part and that everything was ok, fit and forget.
As mentioned I had a Porsche tech, at the OPC check my pump and he thinks that its running backwards, so will blow oil as oppose to suck oil.
I will/have asked Grant to check with oil to confirm.
If it is running backwards, there is only one other additional scavenge available, its an aftermarket setup by a company called TTP in Germany, its fundamentally two piggy backed standard scavenge pumps.
However getting any info from TTP has proven very difficult!!
Would be very interested to see if your early pump runs correctly. - I am finding it difficult to believe that Porsche developed a product to fix a specific issue that they were very aware of only for said product not to work! - But this is how it is looking.
If anyones interested I have the factory install manual for a 3.4 X51, it details all of the changes, I also have the factory parts list.
MisterCorn
Fuji
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2011
- Messages
- 9,410
That is interesting on the oiling kit. All will hopefully be revealed when I get to the engine number and if that isn't conclusive, when I take one of the camshaft covers off to fit the billet tappet chest. I can check valves and camshaft part numbers.
I will be looking at making up a tandem pump, looks straighforward enough from some investigation work I did today.
MC
I will be looking at making up a tandem pump, looks straighforward enough from some investigation work I did today.
MC
If my X51 is running backwards, I would be 100% interested in a tandem scavenge if economies of scale would help your project?
See the TTP item below, I also have pictures of it broken down if it helps. Autofarm used the TTP in the early oversized Caymans they produced.
https://t-t-p.de/oilsafer-kit/
See the TTP item below, I also have pictures of it broken down if it helps. Autofarm used the TTP in the early oversized Caymans they produced.
https://t-t-p.de/oilsafer-kit/
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 8 Jan 2011
- Messages
- 9,410
crash7 said:
That looks very similar to what I am planning, I have read about that but it all seemed very expensive. I would be interested to see photos, feel free to pm me.
MC
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 9,410
crash7 said:
If you watch this short yet informative video on how the scavenge pump works, you will see that the wide section which is visible on the outer cover for the pump needs to be at the bottom when the pump is on bank 4-6, the bank which uses the modified pump with x51.
If you then look at the following photos:
This is the 00 pump which is the one on my engine, you can see the wide part at the bottom so will work correctly.
These photos are of the 01 part which has the wide part at the top, on both the inner and outer chamber, so will run backwards on banks 4-6 but will operate correctly on a boxster or cayman when mounted on bank 1-3.
MC
Ghianightmare
Montreal
- Joined
- 25 Apr 2017
- Messages
- 608
Nice video. Thanks.
As I was looking at my sons lego instructions the other day, it struck me that you now probably have enough photos that you could put together a photo manual like a lego instruction manual that would enable someone to assemble a 996 without any words or text at all!
As I was looking at my sons lego instructions the other day, it struck me that you now probably have enough photos that you could put together a photo manual like a lego instruction manual that would enable someone to assemble a 996 without any words or text at all!
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 9,410
Ghianightmare said:Nice video. Thanks.
As I was looking at my sons lego instructions the other day, it struck me that you now probably have enough photos that you could put together a photo manual like a lego instruction manual that would enable someone to assemble a 996 without any words or text at all!
Perhaps when I'm finished, right now it would be more about how to take one apart without any words in it
Engine moved from the scissor table to the engine stand with the engine hoist.
I cleaned up the engine number:
M96/0166X16060
So not a factory x51 engine, but thankfully it is an 01 and has the dual row IMS bearing. Built in 1999.
I won't know if it has the full x51 heads, the x51 sump, or just the oil pump until I take a camshaft cover off and remove the sump. I won't be doing that now as the garage needs a really good clean and tidy up, and I have to get the car ready for going to the paint shop. The suspense is already killing me.
MC
Im afraid i know very little about this but i do seem to remember it was an upgrade which was done at OPC .
Again i think the heads were changed along with other parts but the mechanic wouldn,t have re stamped the engine number .. i can ask a collegue tomorrow who has done these in the past but from memory it wasnt something that was done so a retro fit of this kit .. albeit missing some parts is perhaps possible :dont know:
Again i think the heads were changed along with other parts but the mechanic wouldn,t have re stamped the engine number .. i can ask a collegue tomorrow who has done these in the past but from memory it wasnt something that was done so a retro fit of this kit .. albeit missing some parts is perhaps possible :dont know:
MisterCorn
Fuji
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I believe it was availabe either as a factory option or as a dealer fit option. Obviously I couldn't resist having a look at mine, so after I had cleaned the garage floor I thought I would take 10 minutes and see how many bolts snapped on the exhaust. They all came out very easily. Doh, that was one reason for removing the engine!! I have only done one side though....
Coil cover and coils removed, clean up the joint area between the head and the cover.
Set engine to TDC, ensuring that the slots on the camshaft are level with the top of the cylinder head, I.E. it isn't 360 degrees out.
Put the camshaft retainer in place, remove the solenoid cover, undo all of the bots and take the cover off.
A view of the camshafts indicates that these are standard camshafts. So it looks like just an oil kit, not a full x51 kit at this point. I'll confirm the valve type when I get the tappet chest off.
MC
Coil cover and coils removed, clean up the joint area between the head and the cover.
Set engine to TDC, ensuring that the slots on the camshaft are level with the top of the cylinder head, I.E. it isn't 360 degrees out.
Put the camshaft retainer in place, remove the solenoid cover, undo all of the bots and take the cover off.
A view of the camshafts indicates that these are standard camshafts. So it looks like just an oil kit, not a full x51 kit at this point. I'll confirm the valve type when I get the tappet chest off.
MC
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 9,410
Back to doing what I need to do in the engine bay.
It appears from the design that when the car is built Porsche hang the brake pipe which goes over the gearbox from the ceiling and then build the rest of the car around it. As such a lot of bits need to be removed to fit it without getting it bent out of shape. I'm keen to bend it as little as possible, if I wanted to bend it I would have bent one up myself. Given that it is a part which is often changed on 10+ year old cars I'm not too impressed.
This is how it looked with the engine out
The two large aluminium tubes are removed which carry the coolant. The two power steering pipes had to be dropped down on the offside to get the pipe out.
The electrical connector which joins the main power back to the engine from the battery also had to come apart, this was pretty corroded so will be cleaned up before going back together.
With these out it is still nowhere near possible to get the pipe in, so I decided to drop the subframe out. Supporting it on the scissor table enabled it to be done easily by myself.
Undo the top suspension bolts, disconnect the fuel line, disconnect the handbrake inside the car and pull the cable through, unplug and unscrew the wheel speed sensor connector, and pull the wheel speed sensor connector out from the mounting bracket on the subframe. I also tie wrapped the shock absorber to the top arms to stop it moving around.
Then undo the three bolts and lift the car up off the subframe
Definitely looking better here,
One of the reasons to drop the engine and gearbox was to treat and protect the rusty seams inside the engine bay. Nothing too bad, but I want them properly sorted. With the pipes out of the way I will treat with rust converter, then two coats of POR15, then underseal. If they lasted 20 years and nearly 200k miles with no protection that should see them good for at least another 30.
MC
It appears from the design that when the car is built Porsche hang the brake pipe which goes over the gearbox from the ceiling and then build the rest of the car around it. As such a lot of bits need to be removed to fit it without getting it bent out of shape. I'm keen to bend it as little as possible, if I wanted to bend it I would have bent one up myself. Given that it is a part which is often changed on 10+ year old cars I'm not too impressed.
This is how it looked with the engine out
The two large aluminium tubes are removed which carry the coolant. The two power steering pipes had to be dropped down on the offside to get the pipe out.
The electrical connector which joins the main power back to the engine from the battery also had to come apart, this was pretty corroded so will be cleaned up before going back together.
With these out it is still nowhere near possible to get the pipe in, so I decided to drop the subframe out. Supporting it on the scissor table enabled it to be done easily by myself.
Undo the top suspension bolts, disconnect the fuel line, disconnect the handbrake inside the car and pull the cable through, unplug and unscrew the wheel speed sensor connector, and pull the wheel speed sensor connector out from the mounting bracket on the subframe. I also tie wrapped the shock absorber to the top arms to stop it moving around.
Then undo the three bolts and lift the car up off the subframe
Definitely looking better here,
One of the reasons to drop the engine and gearbox was to treat and protect the rusty seams inside the engine bay. Nothing too bad, but I want them properly sorted. With the pipes out of the way I will treat with rust converter, then two coats of POR15, then underseal. If they lasted 20 years and nearly 200k miles with no protection that should see them good for at least another 30.
MC
Just seen this, wow you must want to kick the car having to take it apart again!
Anyone else would have just bent and re-bent the pipe (risking work hardening and damaging the coating on OE steel pipes) to get it in. I used cunifer pipe that can handle a bit of bending.
That old brake pipe
Anyone else would have just bent and re-bent the pipe (risking work hardening and damaging the coating on OE steel pipes) to get it in. I used cunifer pipe that can handle a bit of bending.
That old brake pipe
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