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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Removing eccentric lower suspension arm bolts Grin


But using £10’s worth of tools it takes 45mins of sawing per bolt so 3 hrs in total to remove 4 bolts. I’m not sure that they could charge for the other 3 hours the tech spends swearing, banging their head against a wall and the subsequent psychological damage this task causes. frustrated
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chicb
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading Ken@9e's explanation & also lots of other posts he has been involved in, I wish I stayed a lot closer as I would certainly be using him for any work required, but I think that a round trip of 1014 miles is just a bit far, (the last 14 miles was the clincher Sad Floor ) He seems to be one of the few genuine people that we would all wish to use. No wonder his garage is busy.
 
  
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WD-40
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.
 
  
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deMort
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Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

budflicker wrote:
Near Haywards Heath by any chance?


I have nothing to do with my garage other than i currently work there and ive worked at many over the years .

I do work North of Brighton though as there are no Porsche garages here .

For the OP ...

That does sound like a lot of work and not just suspension .. hopefullly the garage has broken down the invoice and explained it better .

I cant say if its totally fair or not but my first post was just to explain the difficulties we face and leave it at that .
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD-40 wrote:
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.


Well rear brake pipes on a 996 Turbo is an engine drop with my local indy who recommends only OPC pre-formed brake pipes for the rear brsked. The labour is reduced considetsbly if you and he agreed kunifer pipes bent and shaped to avoid an engine/gearbox drop.

But 22 hrs that becomes 34 hours is just astonishing for that lot of work? And people talk about having their pants pulled down by OPC!
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Alex
Le Mans
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who in their right mind would recommend the shitty steel pipes Porsche did over cunifer ones? The mind boggles! Surprised
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Alex
Le Mans
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No wonder these cars get a bad name when repeatedly known crap parts are fit.

Anyone wanting some education on proper brake pipe material, read this:

http://www.mechmarine.com/pipe/2011/cunifer-material/
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1282
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD-40 wrote:
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.


Flexi pipes or all hard lines to the MC?

I'm still being boggled by the 22hrs let alone the 34..
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Who in their right mind would recommend the shitty steel pipes Porsche did over cunifer ones? The mind boggles! Surprised


I ALWAYS wonder this whenever people mention it on here.

The reason steel brake line exists is because it can be preformed, holds its shape when unsupported (kicking around the factory / in fitment) and is CHEAPER than kunifer.

It goes straight in on the production line when theres nothing in the way.

But to retro fit a steel line around all the pipes and brackets in the way you would have to straighten some bits to get them in.

This would damage the coating on the lines and work harden them. Surely the best choice is a material that can be manipulated in place.

OK the originals lasted 20 years, but kunifer will last indefinately!

You don't need to drop the gearbox to fit a new line but it certainly helps if you've never done it before.
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD-40 wrote:
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.


34hrs?!


I suppose... if all 4 eccentrics needed cutting off (doesn't take long with air tools)
Ball joints all brought their joints seats with them out the carriers
Shocks were well stuck in the hub carriers (ARB link bolt stuck and needed cutting out)
Brake pipe over gearbox (massive faff)
Brake pipe in front of steering rack is easier if you drop the subframe and rack (if so did you do the rack hard lines?)
Did all the nipples snap too?

Almost sounds like my car.......
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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He may have had his manifolds done Grin

Back on the brake pipes. Mugs (and I say that wholeheartedly)
who get steel ones fitted by some Indy who fits them because he knows he'll get the same job again, and again, and again, are the ones who give some ace cars bad names due to their wallet being ripped.
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Counter Of Beans
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 May 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?

It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious.
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Alex
Le Mans
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?

It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious.


I'm not 100% on what pirtek pictures you mean but I'm guessing some sort of flexible hose. So long as it can withstand the pressure from the hydraulic system in all conditions then why not? The aircon system runs at very high pressure on the hot side of the system and those are just flexi reinforced rubber hoses.

As Wasz stated, designers are given a design brief with the emphasis being on cost and life span, eg.. cheapest option to last 10 years. So steel pipes (in this instance) are fitted. People who aren't educated in material properties, etc. then swear that the best replacement is the thing that came from the original design because they don't know any better......or just like making money. Dont know

The internet is free, educating yourself from internet media is free, making your own mind up from educating yourself from the internet is also free.

As Gordo said at Christmas - 'Are you a mug or a Manc?' Dont know Grin
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sim996
Monza


Joined: 05 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
Ken @ 9E: "Porsche have book times - we use those as a maximum. Generally we will be quicker than those book times. Remember in an OPC the book time is what a tech is allowed - if he/she can do it in less, then his/her efficency rises - the customer still in that case get charged the book time. OPC tech get pulled in if their efficency is not 85% plus a week"

I'm not sure I could rally behind and support you on this statement on this occasion Ken. The indys around here in leafy Cheshire are of the view that OPC book times are out the window on a 996/997 car due to age. They are fine for shiny new cars, but with these cars having corroded bits and bobs, jobs take longer than OPC book times and they reflect that in any estimate.

The corollary to your point that if the OPC tech does the job in less time the customer still gets charged the book time is that if the job takes longer, the customer gets charged the book time only - borne out by my personal experience with OPC.You did not state this and its important to balance your point with this remark also.

I honestly cant state with confidence that an indy will ever charge like that OPC experience of mine for a job that takes longer than book time or estimated time.




This is an important point. You can't win every job unfortunately, that's not just in the automotive industry either. Besides, garages charge more than their available labour capacity so it balances out. They should also be considering customer experience as it's worth more than the extra labour charged as demonstrated by this thread.
 
  
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Tobyone
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 277
Location: Somewhere else


PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooner wrote:
Seized bolts or not it shouldn't take them much longer as they have the best tools for the job and have delt with the problems before. A few hours more maybe but 12 hours extra is ridiculous.


I agree that is a day and a bits extra workload. no way
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Counter Of Beans
Spa-Francorchamps


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Informative stuff, thank you


Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...."
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maldren
Suzuka


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?

It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious.


Manufacturers don't design their cars to last 20 years, for most probably not even 10 so steel pipe is not only cheaper but also good enough, why would they use a more expensive material that would outlast the rest of the car?

Our cars are now up to 20 years old and their pipes are corroding. If we want our cars to last longer we use different materials.
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maldren wrote:
Manufacturers don't design their cars to last 20 years, for most probably not even 10 so steel pipe is not only cheaper but also good enough, why would they use a more expensive material that would outlast the rest of the car?

Our cars are now up to 20 years old and their pipes are corroding. If we want our cars to last longer we use different materials.


Yup steel pipe is "good enough" and much cheaper to buy and faster to install on the production line than anything else, thats the only reason for it.
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Last edited by wasz on Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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wasz
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
alex yates wrote:
Informative stuff, thank you


Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...."



No No No No a flexible line will expand much more under pressure than a rigid line. Think about it, the same properties that allow it to flex mean it will expand.

All 4 brakes have short flexis, as short as possible by design! All 4 brakes will have the same response.

If you replace a single long line with a long flexible hose, that brake will be less efficient than the others, leading to imbalance..
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DynoMike
Albert Park


Joined: 25 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
Counter Of Beans wrote:
alex yates wrote:
Informative stuff, thank you


Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...."



No No No No a flexible line will expand much more under pressure than a rigid line. Think about it, the same properties that allow it to flex mean it will expand.

All 4 brakes have short flexis, as short as possible by design! All 4 brakes will have the same response.

If you replace a single long line with a long flexible hose, that brake will be less efficient than the others, leading to imbalance..



^^^ This.
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