But using £10’s worth of tools it takes 45mins of sawing per bolt so 3 hrs in total to remove 4 bolts. I’m not sure that they could charge for the other 3 hours the tech spends swearing, banging their head against a wall and the subsequent psychological damage this task causes. _________________ 2000 C2 996
chicb Silverstone
Joined: 01 Jun 2017 Posts: 130
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject:
After reading Ken@9e's explanation & also lots of other posts he has been involved in, I wish I stayed a lot closer as I would certainly be using him for any work required, but I think that a round trip of 1014 miles is just a bit far, (the last 14 miles was the clincher ) He seems to be one of the few genuine people that we would all wish to use. No wonder his garage is busy.
WD-40 Newbie
Joined: 31 Jan 2019 Posts: 15
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:29 pm Post subject:
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.
deMort Dijon
Joined: 21 Mar 2015 Posts: 7581 Location: Brighton
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:40 pm Post subject:
budflicker wrote:
Near Haywards Heath by any chance?
I have nothing to do with my garage other than i currently work there and ive worked at many over the years .
I do work North of Brighton though as there are no Porsche garages here .
For the OP ...
That does sound like a lot of work and not just suspension .. hopefullly the garage has broken down the invoice and explained it better .
I cant say if its totally fair or not but my first post was just to explain the difficulties we face and leave it at that . _________________ .
My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target .
Thank you all so Very much .
She's not going until july 2020 though .
7pm - 9pm
Now At An Indy.
cheshire911 Estoril
Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Posts: 3850
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:09 pm Post subject:
WD-40 wrote:
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.
Well rear brake pipes on a 996 Turbo is an engine drop with my local indy who recommends only OPC pre-formed brake pipes for the rear brsked. The labour is reduced considetsbly if you and he agreed kunifer pipes bent and shaped to avoid an engine/gearbox drop.
But 22 hrs that becomes 34 hours is just astonishing for that lot of work? And people talk about having their pants pulled down by OPC! _________________ 996 2002 X50 Turbo Manual
"Once bitten; forever smitten"
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17138 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
Who in their right mind would recommend the shitty steel pipes Porsche did over cunifer ones? The mind boggles! _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17138 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.
Flexi pipes or all hard lines to the MC?
I'm still being boggled by the 22hrs let alone the 34.. _________________ 1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
Who in their right mind would recommend the shitty steel pipes Porsche did over cunifer ones? The mind boggles!
I ALWAYS wonder this whenever people mention it on here.
The reason steel brake line exists is because it can be preformed, holds its shape when unsupported (kicking around the factory / in fitment) and is CHEAPER than kunifer.
It goes straight in on the production line when theres nothing in the way.
But to retro fit a steel line around all the pipes and brackets in the way you would have to straighten some bits to get them in.
This would damage the coating on the lines and work harden them. Surely the best choice is a material that can be manipulated in place.
OK the originals lasted 20 years, but kunifer will last indefinately!
Works included replacing shocks, springs, bump stops, lower arms, suspension arms, anti roll bars, brake pipes, nipples, engine mounts and a geo amongst other things.
34hrs?!
I suppose... if all 4 eccentrics needed cutting off (doesn't take long with air tools)
Ball joints all brought their joints seats with them out the carriers
Shocks were well stuck in the hub carriers (ARB link bolt stuck and needed cutting out)
Brake pipe over gearbox (massive faff)
Brake pipe in front of steering rack is easier if you drop the subframe and rack (if so did you do the rack hard lines?)
Did all the nipples snap too?
Back on the brake pipes. Mugs (and I say that wholeheartedly)
who get steel ones fitted by some Indy who fits them because he knows he'll get the same job again, and again, and again, are the ones who give some ace cars bad names due to their wallet being ripped. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Counter Of Beans Spa-Francorchamps
Joined: 10 May 2018 Posts: 370 Location: Hampshire
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:29 pm Post subject:
Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?
It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious. _________________ I'm Mike and I count beans for a living.
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17138 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?
It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious.
I'm not 100% on what pirtek pictures you mean but I'm guessing some sort of flexible hose. So long as it can withstand the pressure from the hydraulic system in all conditions then why not? The aircon system runs at very high pressure on the hot side of the system and those are just flexi reinforced rubber hoses.
As Wasz stated, designers are given a design brief with the emphasis being on cost and life span, eg.. cheapest option to last 10 years. So steel pipes (in this instance) are fitted. People who aren't educated in material properties, etc. then swear that the best replacement is the thing that came from the original design because they don't know any better......or just like making money.
The internet is free, educating yourself from internet media is free, making your own mind up from educating yourself from the internet is also free.
As Gordo said at Christmas - 'Are you a mug or a Manc?' _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
sim996 Monza
Joined: 05 Aug 2017 Posts: 208
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:03 am Post subject:
cheshire911 wrote:
Ken @ 9E: "Porsche have book times - we use those as a maximum. Generally we will be quicker than those book times. Remember in an OPC the book time is what a tech is allowed - if he/she can do it in less, then his/her efficency rises - the customer still in that case get charged the book time. OPC tech get pulled in if their efficency is not 85% plus a week"
I'm not sure I could rally behind and support you on this statement on this occasion Ken. The indys around here in leafy Cheshire are of the view that OPC book times are out the window on a 996/997 car due to age. They are fine for shiny new cars, but with these cars having corroded bits and bobs, jobs take longer than OPC book times and they reflect that in any estimate.
The corollary to your point that if the OPC tech does the job in less time the customer still gets charged the book time is that if the job takes longer, the customer gets charged the book time only - borne out by my personal experience with OPC.You did not state this and its important to balance your point with this remark also.
I honestly cant state with confidence that an indy will ever charge like that OPC experience of mine for a job that takes longer than book time or estimated time.
This is an important point. You can't win every job unfortunately, that's not just in the automotive industry either. Besides, garages charge more than their available labour capacity so it balances out. They should also be considering customer experience as it's worth more than the extra labour charged as demonstrated by this thread.
Tobyone Spa-Francorchamps
Joined: 20 Jan 2018 Posts: 277 Location: Somewhere else
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:55 am Post subject:
Hooner wrote:
Seized bolts or not it shouldn't take them much longer as they have the best tools for the job and have delt with the problems before. A few hours more maybe but 12 hours extra is ridiculous.
I agree that is a day and a bits extra workload. no way _________________ 997.1 C4s GT Silver, factory Aerokit
Counter Of Beans Spa-Francorchamps
Joined: 10 May 2018 Posts: 370 Location: Hampshire
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:37 am Post subject:
alex yates wrote:
Informative stuff, thank you
Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...." _________________ I'm Mike and I count beans for a living.
maldren Suzuka
Joined: 07 Oct 2016 Posts: 1196
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:31 am Post subject:
Counter Of Beans wrote:
Alex, can I ask a question? Is it possible to fit those hoses that the likes of Pirtek picture on the side of their vans? Or are those not rigid enough? Surely if they are good enough for petrol pumps they must be safe?
It just seems like in 2019 the industry is still using rigid pipes that corrode, why is this? Just curious.
Manufacturers don't design their cars to last 20 years, for most probably not even 10 so steel pipe is not only cheaper but also good enough, why would they use a more expensive material that would outlast the rest of the car?
Our cars are now up to 20 years old and their pipes are corroding. If we want our cars to last longer we use different materials. _________________ Mike
2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
Manufacturers don't design their cars to last 20 years, for most probably not even 10 so steel pipe is not only cheaper but also good enough, why would they use a more expensive material that would outlast the rest of the car?
Our cars are now up to 20 years old and their pipes are corroding. If we want our cars to last longer we use different materials.
Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...."
No No No No a flexible line will expand much more under pressure than a rigid line. Think about it, the same properties that allow it to flex mean it will expand.
All 4 brakes have short flexis, as short as possible by design! All 4 brakes will have the same response.
Seems like there's a market opportunity for any indy, then.
"We replace your brake lines with custom made flexible hoses that won't rust and we offer a lifetime guarantee. Plus, we can fit them in a fraction of the time that it takes to fit inferior replacement OEM steel pipes. Call now on...."
No No No No a flexible line will expand much more under pressure than a rigid line. Think about it, the same properties that allow it to flex mean it will expand.
All 4 brakes have short flexis, as short as possible by design! All 4 brakes will have the same response.
If you replace a single long line with a long flexible hose, that brake will be less efficient than the others, leading to imbalance..
^^^ This. _________________ 2003 996 Turbo
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) He seems to be one of the few genuine people that we would all wish to use. No wonder his garage is busy.
