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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Hate to ask, However gen2 borescoreing vs a turbo? Reply with quote

Hi all,

This isnt a "what is borescore" type post, and simply I cant find the answer on the forum or google. You lot have more knowledge than anywhere so here we go.

Ive been out of a 911 for about 2 years now. My 996 cracked a cylinder liner and exploded in spectacular fashion.

Long story short ive been saving to top up the kitty from a 997.1 C2s to a 997.2 C2S over the past yer as they "dont suffer borescore". Having already lost one engine, I err on the side of caution.

2019 ill be back in a 911, however whilst ive been waiting in the wings, ive kept my finger on the pulse......

Gen2 cars are also suffering, so they arent immune!! WTF!!!

Puts my mind in a muddle and what ever car i get itll be over serviced, low temp thermostat etc, everything to preserve life.

My question...... Do the 996 or 997 Turbos ever suffer? From what I know its the hardware, ie turbos which fail. Not the block itself. I am a dab hand and currently rebuilding my track cars engine, however removing turbos seems like a better deal than dragging the lump to Hartech for a full rebuild.

Thank in advance Smile
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14707
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure that the fabled Mezger based lump does fail but I can't think of anybody ever reporting it on here.
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Magic919
Österreich


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 909
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the engines never fail. I wouldn’t worry about the 997.2 engines.
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apollokre1d
Sepang


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2814
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMI A has had a Mezger engine failure. If I recall it happened when the car was unmodified and was replaced under warranty.

Agree with the above, 997.2 engines appear to be fine.
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Last edited by apollokre1d on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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FZP
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 2709
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is evidence of the dfi engine borescoring, but only in specific circumstances. There was a thread on here a while ago about it. Long and the short of it was that it needed to be very cold(well into -C°) and the car needed to be thrashed from cold. Something to do with the cylinders heating at different rates and pinching the cylinder.
That's the very basics of it from memory. To be fair I reckon most engines would chuck a wobbly under those kinds of situations.
Otherwise they're rock solid, but with confidence
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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My concern is the latest borescore I saw on the Porsche owners forum was a low mileage 2011 C4S. Had a new block fitted under warranty.

Agree to the points above, however it does sadly seem that the 997.2’s are creeping into the same issues. Can anyone recall what age the 997.1’s started having issues? Ie are the gen2 problems simply few and far between?

With that in mind, does anyone know of an aftermarket warranty which covers these “old” cars?

Thanks

Andy
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MisterCorn
Long Beach


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 6377
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezger engines do fail, and when they do the rebuild costs can be eye watering. It is rarer though. I have heard of timing chain failures and know of an oil pump which was not screwed in to the block properly from the factory. I have also seen another one trashed by a dropped valve due to a partially blocked injector letting it run lean.

MC

Last edited by MisterCorn on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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apollokre1d
Sepang


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2814
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get a Porsche approved warranty just as long as it has done less than 125,000 miles and is under 14 years old.
https://www.porsche.com/uk/approvedused/porscheapproved/usedcar/features/warranty/

Or try the Hartech lifetime maintenance plan.
https://www.hartech.org/images/downloads/LMP+terms+&+conditions+Oct2014.protected.pdf
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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes the Porsche warranty. Was it after 3 months ownership of mit bought through them. Then you put it through their 111 point check, sort any issues then happy days.
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FZP
Magny-Cours


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 2709
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd sleep easy easy on borescore on 997.2. The borescore in 997.1 was apparent very early on, moreso on Tip 3.8 cars.
The earliest of the gen2 cars are coming up to 10 years old and I've only heard of a bout 6 globally with borescore. All bar the one you mentioned were in very cold climates (US northern states) and one in the Nordic countries(not 100% on that).
As for the Metzger engine, sure they is bound to be the odd failure here or there.
If you have any concerns, but an OPC car and keep up the warranty, then you can really sleep easy
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14558
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, good to see you posting again mate its been a while. heres my 2p on your dilemma .

The gen2 bore scoring is very different to the gen1 it is a tiny numbers and seems to be less of a weakness in the engine and more about unsympathetic drivers/owners the gen2 doesn't go oval like the gen1 it expands at one end and jams .According to the best of the best all the ones they have seen have been driven hard from cold in extremely cold conditions. therefore as it seems to be owner abuse or lack of knowledge/understanding about the flat6 engine I would suspect that a gen2 thats been borescope during the PPI and come back clean provided you are a sympathetic driver you going forward should be safe or as safe as you can be with any car.

Now thats the gen2 sorted on to my best advise and that it Dont spend 45k on a turbo , Dont spend 35/40k on a gen2 Reasons why you ask Grin

the Turbo is not twice the car the NA car is but its twice the price you will get 99.5% of the same buzz and fun from a NA 911

the gen2 IMHO the gen1 is a better car , rawer, sounds better, better drivers car due to less driver aids and technical intervention, the 997.1 IMO had it not got the poor engine rep would be the best air cooled all round value for money 911 made. BUT and its a big BUT mmmm the supposed chocolate engine .
can you see where I am going with this yet Floor Floor

YES you guessed the three options I recommend are either buy a Hartech rebuilt gen1 thats the easy option . buy a cheap 3.8 and send it to Hartech for a rebuild to your spec.

or the fun option

buy a very high mileage gen1 3.6 as cheap as you can and send it to Hartech for their 3.9 upgrade rebuild add IPD plenum TB, nice exhaust with 200 cell cats, good induction full remap while its there which it will get anyway as the 3.9 needs it. change from 35k and a real bullet proof and very fast talking point.

all the subtle differences between the 3.6 and 3.8 can be retro fitted other than PASM and IMO the NON PASM set up is better than PASM unless you spend £1000 on the dsc module. the PCM3 is almost a crap as the PCM2.1 and there are far better aftermarket head units out there.

Ah but the turbos faster well the 3.6 gen1 turbo is 475bhp but a 10k supercharger that fits just in the space of the airbox. on the 3.9 Hartech upgrade would give you between 525 and 550 BHP but tbh THE 400bhp the 3.9 Hartech car gives as std would be enough for most people. but if down the line a bit you had 10K spare and an itch well there is an option Grin Grin

I realise my views and opinions would make a PCGB members sandals melt Grin but if you want proper bullet proof and a fun talking point its worth chewing over mate

Thumb Thumb Thumb whatever you decide looking forward to catching up with you again in 2019 Thumb Thumb Thumb
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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Phil,

Indeed long time no see, thank you for your summary, it certainly cleared up all thoughts and nagging doubt! Floor

It’s clear now that the 997.2 issues are far less than I thought. That will play on my mind I’m sure. Thanks for the advice chaps.

Interesting Phil that you say the 997.1 is a better drivers car - I agree. I was disappointed in how normal the gen 2 felt, a bit like driving a Nissan GTR on track, hugely capable, Defo quicker, but didn’t thrill. But then again the 997 is very easy for daily driving over the 996 (not just because of cup holders). As it is daily driving I want with occasional B road blasting, with the annual Nurburgring trip it fits the bill. All out silliness is saved for the track car, unless that also gets an upgrade one day to a bare bones 996.2.......

I shall look into this 3.9 at Hartech. I won’t lie, I do regret not getting the renegade V8 kit and fitting an LS3 to my 996. I know of a chap down here who did a 997.1 last year also. That will still remain the back up plan then.

So I’ll stick to my plan, pocket the £10k and go for the engine made of cheese 👌

2019 will be my next post, back in a proper car again! 😀

Til then, I thank everyone for their help and advice. Let’s see you all for some beers in the summer
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14558
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr JimBone down near me is almost done putting an LS3 6.2Ltr. block in his Cayman he should have it ready about the same time mines back from Hartech. Then Dorset will know when we are going to Sandbanks for Bacon Butties with Harry Grin his only stipulation to the exhaust builder was "It must be louder than Phil's " Grin Floor

Good luck with your search for your new 911 Thumb
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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah shoehorning an LS3 in an Cayman!!! That’s impressive.
What are you having done at hartech? Lol will it be louder than my mistake of an exhaust 🤭
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14558
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andylang wrote:
Woah shoehorning an LS3 in an Cayman!!! That’s impressive.
What are you having done at hartech? Lol will it be louder than my mistake of an exhaust 🤭


Ah Andy of course you dont know . Well 18 months ago I traded my ultra reliable 997.1 which was borescoped when I traded it and it was clean as a whistle and brought a 997.2 4S I had 6 months fun driving and some personalising of the car which is what I do as you know lol. then the coolant pipes went in Jan this year followed by the clutch ,I then had the gearbox fail on the way back from Germany in May, the gearbox was rebuilt 2nd and 3rd gear sets and syncros also I was advised to do the flywheel as there was some play in it so 8k later I was back on the road for 2 to 3 weeks took the car to Porsche on the prom Weymouth and on the way back it started running rough so limped it home got my Porsche indy to check it over he was stuck took it to OPC they were stuck so I sent it to Hartech who stripped it and found metal in the engine even they hadn't seen before sent it off to be analysed it can back as the material used to make cats so off came the 200 cell cats and sure enough one had broken up and on over run the engine had sucked the material into itself . nooo Seems the previous owner used cheap nasty made in the Far East 200 cell cats . So a full Hartech rebuild is needed plus cargraphic 200 cell cats to go with the rest of the cargraphic set up I have on it. while they have been rebuilding it they have advised a number of ancillery engine items are worn or faulty and need replacing tandem pump, high pressure pump, lots of hoses and gaskets, various rods etc etc so when I get it back 2018 will have cost me between 24k and 26k in repairs this year nooo more than my ultra reliable gen1 cost to buy Grin but it must be noted that this rebuild is not a failing of the Porsche engine but a nasty cheap unbranded aftermarket part. Thumb :thumb:but the good news is if I keep the 997.2 for another 4 years which now everything is rebuilt I might as well as theres not much left to go wrong now lol. my ave 911 ownership will still be only around 3k pa for the 10 years I will have had 911s. and as I see it thats not bad to be able to drive a 911 as a regular daily drive for a decade. Thumb Thumb heres a pic of the gen2
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andylang
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 279
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow that’s an aweful lot of eye watering parts to go wrong one after another. However like you say the car will now be 100% sorted for another decade not only 4 years 🤙
On the flip side £3k pa is peanuts- I shan’t disclose how much I’ve thrown away in the 2 yrs since my 911 bouncing around from multiple cars. I too could have simply bought another 911.
Life’s a learning curve and your new car looks absolutely 100% muts nuts mate! I mean ur old one was a looker, this is lush! Thumb
Til 2019 my friend
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James M-S
Hockenheim


Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 745
Location: Derbyshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could compromise with a gen 2 3.6 carrera and cash for mods?

If a Turbocharger lunches itself you’re looking at a 6k bill.
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14558
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andy, yep catch up in 2019 mate Thumb
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benbuhagiar
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 28 Dec 2014
Posts: 270
Location: Kent

2008 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James M-S wrote:
Or you could compromise with a gen 2 3.6 carrera and cash for mods?

If a Turbocharger lunches itself you’re looking at a 6k bill.


Agreed. 345 BHP is more than enough for our roads. With a PDK gearbox, it does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds.
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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1368
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

benbuhagiar wrote:
James M-S wrote:
Or you could compromise with a gen 2 3.6 carrera and cash for mods?

If a Turbocharger lunches itself you’re looking at a 6k bill.


Agreed. 345 BHP is more than enough for our roads. With a PDK gearbox, it does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds.


Ha, keep telling yourself that! I never pick a fight but I've had countless bikes and fast cars sitting aggressively on my tail. Soooo glad I had the turbo! thumbsup
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