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crispostorko
Newbie


Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: 3.4 ragged/bore scoring Reply with quote

So i'm looking at a manual GTS.. this is its history:
17k miles in - new clutch
5k miles in - new rear tyres

It's obviously been on the track, or ragged around.

So i'd be buying a GTS with a new clutch. The dealer (not OPC)'s given me the usual "82 point inspection" bullcrap BUT they are a reputable dealer.

What should I look for on this car when I test drive it? I've read about bore scoring.. if this has been ragged.. what needs inspecting?

i dont want to buy a 50k car then have it blow up on me
 
  
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FZP
Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3112
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piece of mind would have me sending the car off to OPC for the 111point check. Bore Scoring and you winning the Lotto have about the same chance. It's not impossible but there have been instances of it. Usually in very cold environments and thrashed.
How you burn through a clutch in 17k miles is somewhat concerning. Our Audi is on 130k on the original clutch with no signs of it wanting to give up the ghost. It may have failed for other reasons other than abuse too.
A GTS is a cracking car, you won't go far wrong with that.
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going on the wise words of Baz at Hartech, these cars being used properly is not the issue. In his mind, cars that spend their lives around town with lots of torque-y pulling away and never having the cobwebs blown out are at more risk of borescore.

These cars want to be warmed up and warmed down properly, I warm up for 7 miles keeping it under 3k during that period.

You don’t state which generation you’re looking at? Another thing he says is that if you have been making progress and suddenly get stopped unexpectedly at lights for example, the engine reaches critical temps due to the lack of cooling from being stationary. He states you must never then burn it off again, so traffic light GPs are out. I go back into warm up mode for a mile or two after an unexpected stop when the car is super hot.

There’s plenty on the subject, I believe Baz’s document on the matter is 47 pages.

If the car has been tracked lots, transmission and suspension would be the things to look at. Also have a gander at the engine data, from there you’ll be able to see exactly what life the engine has had.
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Last edited by The return of Marty Wild on Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This written by another big fish in the UK Porsche community.

http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
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crispostorko
Newbie


Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
Going on the wise words of Baz at Hartech, these cars being used properly is not the issue. In his mind, cars that spend their lives around town with lots of torque-y pulling away and never having the cobwebs blown out are at more risk of borescore.

These cars want to be warmed up and warmed down properly, I warm up for 7 miles keeping it under 3k during that period.

You don’t state which generation you’re looking at? Another thing he says is that if you have been making progress and suddenly get stopped unexpectedly at lights for example, the engine reaches critical temps due to the lack of cooling from being stationary. He states you must never then burn it off again, so traffic light GPs are out. I go back into warm up mode for a mile or two after an unexpected stop when the car is super hot.

There’s plenty on the subject, I believe Baz’s document on the matter is 47 pages.

If the car has been tracked lots, transmission and suspension would be the things to look at. Also have a gander at the engine data, from there you’ll be able to see exactly what life the engine has had.


Thanks dude.. nice informative reply. It's a Boxster GTS 981 by the way. 15 plate.
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, in that case, you have NOTHING to worry about in terms of borescoring, it's the older cars that suffer from BS.

So check the engine data for the lifetime av speed (mileage divide by engine hours) to pinpoint where the car has spend most of its time. Then check for 'over-revs' as per that link. And as stated, transmission and suspension most likely to have the wear from TDs.

And all cars, especially Porkers (which have vast amounts of oil) need thorough warming up. My Cayman has 3x as much oil as my Golf.
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies, the fact you said GTS probably defines the fact you are looking at a GTS as I don't think the 987 era had a GTS variant.

Just saw the word 'borescore' and ran with it!
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crispostorko
Newbie


Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, in that case, you have NOTHING to worry about in terms of borescoring, it's the older cars that suffer from BS.

So check the engine data for the lifetime av speed (mileage divide by engine hours) to pinpoint where the car has spend most of its time. Then check for 'over-revs' as per that link. And as stated, transmission and suspension most likely to have the wear from TDs.

And all cars, especially Porkers (which have vast amounts of oil) need thorough warming up. My Cayman has 3x as much oil as my Golf.


So the dealer says they do an ECU check as part of their "82 point check".. should I ask them to provide the diagnostics including the rev range data then?
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would, its not tough, as you say they just plug in PIWIS and it's displayed very easily.

What the dealer views as worthy of mention and what the buyer might, could be two different things.

Porsche for example would only offer you a warranty if the rev ranges meet their criteria. Which I cant remember off the top of my head.
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crispostorko
Newbie


Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The return of Marty Wild wrote:
I would, its not tough, as you say they just plug in PIWIS and it's displayed very easily.

What the dealer views as worthy of mention and what the buyer might, could be two different things.

Porsche for example would only offer you a warranty if the rev ranges meet their criteria. Which I cant remember off the top of my head.


So i asked and they said they don't have a device that can check the rev limit data, only the ECU faults of which there were none.

Furthermore there is a legitimate reason as to why the clutch was fooked which i wont discuss here...
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, allow Demort (the in-house Tech) to comment on that. Sounds a bit fishy to me!

I've seen my car's engine data 3 times at different locations, really not hard.
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kas750
Reims


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4362
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crispostorko wrote:
The return of Marty Wild wrote:
I would, its not tough, as you say they just plug in PIWIS and it's displayed very easily.

What the dealer views as worthy of mention and what the buyer might, could be two different things.

Porsche for example would only offer you a warranty if the rev ranges meet their criteria. Which I cant remember off the top of my head.


So i asked and they said they don't have a device that can check the rev limit data, only the ECU faults of which there were none.

Furthermore there is a legitimate reason as to why the clutch was fooked which i wont discuss here...

Sounds like they are fully equipped with a 10 bob generic code reader from eBay.
 
  
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The return of Marty Wild
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Nov 2016
Posts: 1315



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^what he said!
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6836
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crispostorko wrote:


Furthermore there is a legitimate reason as to why the clutch was fooked which i wont discuss here...


Curious...

Official Secrets Act? Celebrity gagging order? Dont know

Maybe it was a press car, hence new rear tyres after 5k miles and a new clutch after performance tests?
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3784



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put the intended vehicle through an OPC 111-point inspection. It is thorough, comprehensive and costs around £200 and they have your interest in the purchase and will provide you a full inspection report. Then decide how you want to move forward.

If the dealer is trying to negate you having this done or refuses to ut it through at your expense, walk away.
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6152
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off clutch and tyres at those milages are pretty excessive .. its been tracked or driven hard .

Its a 111 point check not 82.

Bore score can happen if its been thrashed when cold .

A piwis or indeed many other testers can see over rev limits and this is a pretty important check that is part of a Porsche inspection .. if you have range 5 / 6 then you have engine damage .

Over all if this is a car you are thinking of buying .. from this OPC then i would walk away .
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crispostorko
Newbie


Joined: 16 Nov 2018
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP HERE. So to settle this discussion once and for all, I have good reason to believe that it hasn't been thrashed. The reason for the clutch going so early was because the fella who owned it before had a disability (i wont mention what as he might browse these forums) and therefore was very heavy footed (and burnt it out). Obviously the dealer wasn't supposed to tell me but I think he felt he had to as every other buyer has asked him about the clutch. Of course he could be making it up but it makes sense. The dealer has a really good reputation and doesn't sell cars cheaper than 40k.

The new clutch was done by OPC at a cost of 3k, in addition to a health check and service, only 200 miles prior to me buying it. They surely would've picked up on something there. I have the health report to prove it.

The warranty i'm getting with the car covered claims up to 2k, till i raised the point that Porsche repairs aren't cheap, and he bumped it up to 5k.

So all in all, i think i got a good deal and i'll be sure to post pics when i collect it smile.
 
  
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