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New997buyer
Yas Marina


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 8811



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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997.1 turbo
Ex 996.2 turbo, 996.1 C2
 
  
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NickHappy
Nürburgring


Joined: 27 Apr 2014
Posts: 411
Location: W.Sussex


PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^^ Likewise.


I’ve been in the position of having to take a decision on 2x broken turbos on a 996 and it wasn’t a nice position to be in - so the more transparency we can have to help when this happens on the 997 would be helpful Question
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New997buyer
Yas Marina


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 8811



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickHappy wrote:
^^^^^^ Likewise.


I’ve been in the position of having to take a decision on 2x broken turbos on a 996 and it wasn’t a nice position to be in - so the more transparency we can have to help when this happens on the 997 would be helpful Question


Agree


It’s not about right vs wrong, it’s simply about educating members.

Especially us who have turbo chargers the other side of 10 yrs old....
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Slutters
Monza


Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 223



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ken has been very transparent here with a full breakdown of the costs associated with the work. It's a proper job to, with stainless steel fixings and new heat shields.

I would also be keen to see the full invoices Simon, at the moment, we have the full facts from one side, and a semi covered bit of invoice from the other... Laughing Laughing
 
  
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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1416
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickHappy wrote:
so the more transparency we can have to help when this happens on the 997 would be helpful Question
I'm sorry to say it is worse on the vtg cars unfortunately.

On 997.1 cars, there is less opportunity to refurb the turbos than on 996 Turbo. Additionally, whilst removing the lines etc is essentially the same job, the 997.1 cars also have water line to the turbo. It is essential when trying to remove that to avoid having to cut that line or damage it in anyway as to fit new water line is engine down.

On 997.2 cars same applies but there is more room to replace the water line without dropping the engine.

on 991.1 cars same as 997.2 cars.

The pictures below - that is turbo on 991.1 turbo s that we removed (or at least tried to remove) - just impossible to get the lines off and had to cut them all. Hot side wheel had excessive movement and when stripped you can see the cause - scored from contamination.

So you can imagine what they are like on 996 Turbos.
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 670



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
The facts are that the quote from the OP was text copied from an email from 9e to the OP.

You have then deduced ( how we would all like to know ) that the Labour was close to £4k, that ( and quite rightly the OP ) should shop around because of the labour. Unfortunately as has been shown by our internal document, the labour is not £4K.

The problem Simon is the OP may based on your comment believe we are ripping them off. I am entitled to defend 9e.

You then say that you don’t want to argue, not your intention to deflame etc and yet in the next sentence say you wont put up as you don’t want to embarrass us ? So you are still trying to make a point that we are not providing a good price.

So you have the list , you have the labour and what is changed. So unless you are paying less than £80 plus vat per hour , or you are not doing xyz as detailed in the labour, the only difference in price will be if the turbo refurb is cheaper.

The point of the forum is to help others and make them informed. Your saying £2200 plus vat is a rip off for one turbo refurb. Your saying that Porsche OPC will do it cheaper.

Well show us how that is please and if you can then I will be happy to adjust my pricing.

I am not taking any post down Simon. My post stands.

Ken




Ken , this topic isn’t up for debate any further. This thread isn’t about 9e or the service your company offers at the price you command.

This is about giving information in a bid to aid an enthusiast without the expectation receiving anything in return.

This topic goes beyond the scope of this thread and I won’t allow it to turn into an argument.

By the comments you have made demonstrates you are acting extremely threatened when there really is no need to be. Im trying to help you here.

This doesn’t take away from the facts of my experience.

The total job cost was £1402 plus vat for replacing one turbo charger including parts and labour. Porsche even fitted my Europipe exhaust without charge with lambda sensors change over etc.

Thread readers should be aware that there are a lot of ’Independent Porsche specialist Garage- Fanboys’ (You know who you are) on this forum that only stick up and endorse their own garage to the extent that they deliberately post skeptical and critical comments about other members information in a bid to sabotage good information being shared to benefit others.

I make reference to this in a previous post, when a new (at the time) tuner ESmotor first joined this site with some extremely exciting developments and land speed records with their Porsche Turbo packages. When they posted their results, the reception they got was extremely negative and bullying in nature . Many agreed that this was absolutely unacceptable and disgusting. ESmotor left the site since and not returned.

Finally, thanks for the nice messages everyone has sent so far.


Best

Si Thumb
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lofi
Barcelona


Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Posts: 1361
Location: Surrey/Kent border

2001 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the issue, Simon, is that you haven’t helped anyone. You won’t show and invoice demonstrating the work done so people can make an informed decision about the value they would be obtaining via different routes. In fact,you have deliberately obscured the information that would further this thread.
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 670



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoke with Ken over the phone, thanks for the call.

Im glad you now understand the points and comments and the genuine intention for them. They were made to aid with the best intention of thread starter in mind. Not to discourage or defame others.

I completely, understand and empathised with your angle.

We agreed the comments we made still stand, but aware members are able to actively and respectively agree or disagree without there being a threat any interpersonal problems.

To clarify, there is no ill feeling between us.

Ken, Im also extremely happy as I know others will be that you acknowledged you have a responsibility (albeit limited) to the members on this forum that endorse your brand and/or look up to you as an influencer, along with their actions towards other members on this forum.

You will I hope actively discourage any acts bullying in the future should they arise.

I wish you the best in all your future ventures Ken.


Best

Simon

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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 670



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't be sharing anymore artefacts in this threat.

Anyone who interested in finding out specific information can contact the parties mentioned in this thread directly.





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Robert SausageTrousers
Silverstone


Joined: 02 Apr 2018
Posts: 113



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thread readers should be aware that there are a lot of ’Independent Porsche specialist Garage- Fanboys’ (You know who you are) on this forum that only stick up and endorse their own garage to the extent that they deliberately post skeptical and critical comments about other members information in a bid to sabotage good information being shared to benefit others.


Aside from anything else within this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, and it's a real shame not least because it devalues the input that many specialists and forward thinking engineers could have to us all as owners.
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 670



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert SausageTrousers wrote:
Quote:
Thread readers should be aware that there are a lot of ’Independent Porsche specialist Garage- Fanboys’ (You know who you are) on this forum that only stick up and endorse their own garage to the extent that they deliberately post skeptical and critical comments about other members information in a bid to sabotage good information being shared to benefit others.


Aside from anything else within this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, and it's a real shame not least because it devalues the input that many specialists and forward thinking engineers could have to us all as owners.



If we all worked together I feel we could achieve anything.

Example;

Im currently working on early application process of the new style ZF 8 Speed gearbox to a tiptronic P car.

This is essentially is the same outlay as our ZF6 Auto boxes in the tiptronic vehicles however much more advanced.

Essentially it drives like a dual clutch.

Can you imagine the amount of people that would benefit from ZF8 gearbox conversion in a tiptronic car?

A video of an entry level ZF8 Gearbox- Not the one proposed for a P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gY3UPT_Fkw.

The real benefit of this application isn't the shift speed but the delay between the shift commanded and the execution rate.

If we we able to draw upon all the talents in the Porsche aftermarket industry and it's enthusiasts, with appropriate funding we would of had this completed in 14 months easy.
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Dammit
Kyalami


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 1842



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seem to be two things in this thread:

1. What the bill would look like from 9e for turbo refurbishment (including what that refurbishment involves)
2. That Simon had some work on his turbo(s?), but not what that work involved, but that Simon was happy about it and it cost less than a full turbo refurb at 9e

Unless some posts have been deleted, there's nothing in this thread that could be used to compare 1 with 2.
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New997buyer
Yas Marina


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 8811



PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New997buyer wrote:
NickHappy wrote:
^^^^^^ Likewise.


I’ve been in the position of having to take a decision on 2x broken turbos on a 996 and it wasn’t a nice position to be in - so the more transparency we can have to help when this happens on the 997 would be helpful Question


Agree


It’s not about right vs wrong, it’s simply about educating members.

Especially us who have turbo chargers the other side of 10 yrs old....


I’d hoped for transparency........instead I’m totally and utterly baffled Dont know
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997.1 turbo
Ex 996.2 turbo, 996.1 C2
 
  
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HSC911
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 5587
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New997buyer wrote:
New997buyer wrote:
NickHappy wrote:
^^^^^^ Likewise.


I’ve been in the position of having to take a decision on 2x broken turbos on a 996 and it wasn’t a nice position to be in - so the more transparency we can have to help when this happens on the 997 would be helpful Question


Agree


It’s not about right vs wrong, it’s simply about educating members.

Especially us who have turbo chargers the other side of 10 yrs old....


I’d hoped for transparency........instead I’m totally and utterly baffled Dont know


But both are now 'Porsche friends' Flowers

I reckon Ken paid him off Grin

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Stubbsy996
Trainee


Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the original poster I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest on this. If so I apologise as this was not my intention and I certainly didn't want to offend anyone! I was really only seeking advice/opinions from anyone that had had similar work done so that I could review my options in view of the costs involved.
 
  
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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1416
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stubbsy996 wrote:
As the original poster I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest on this. If so I apologise as this was not my intention and I certainly didn't want to offend anyone! I was really only seeking advice/opinions from anyone that had had similar work done so that I could review my options in view of the costs involved.
No need to apologise - forums are here for healthy debate.

The costs I posted are the maximum case because invariably cars of a certain age need everything replaced and our view is that while you are there, you should take the opportunity to minimise labour in the future.

The Porsche method of removing a turbocharger is to remove the exhaust bolts, remove the retaining bracket, then remove the manifolds and slide the turbo out. There are actually different methods but essentially this is it. However you can also remove the bolts from the turbo to manifold end and not have to touch the manifold bolts. Removing the manifold bolts from the heads is probably the worse thing techs like to do.

The costs I posted are using genuine parts and cover the fact that everything needs to be replaced. Clearly for example if you recently had new actuators and they can be reused, then you can remove the cost of those from the costs I posted. Similarly if the turbo to manifold nuts have been replaced in the past and are in good shape, then the job will be easier.

Simon and I chatted yesterday (we have known each other for a long time) and he makes a valid point that there are alternative (cheaper) solutions to some parts - for example not using Porsche actuators which reduces the cost. Nothing wrong with that and certainly when we do hybrids turbos we don't use stock actuators.

However I do have to consider each case on behalf of a customer and make a recommendation. If I have a low mile turbo car then I am unlikely to recommend using an aftermarket solution say in the case of an actuator because quite simply if I was to purchase that car for resale, I will then before placing our in house warranty on the job replace - and we have done that on several turbos that we have sold recently.

It is a similar situation for example if you look at brake lines over the engine - you either drop the engine and replace with Porsche parts, or you can make up lines, and avoid dropping the engine - I won't sell a car that has non standard brake lines in this instance - it doesn't make it wrong to have non standard brake lines, it is just our requirement, and would be similar if for example you took a later car to OPC for 111 check for warranty.

But I totally agree with Simon that the cost of a turbo refurb can be cheaper depending on the choices of what you do.

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Stoo.c
Monza


Joined: 07 Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Location: Hertfordshire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it purely the location of the turbos (right next to the road essentially) that causes them to end up in such awful condition? My 25 year old turbo on my Skyline is infinitely better than those. It feels like Porsche could have done so much more to protect parts on such an expensive car.
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plynchy
Imola


Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 866
Location: Teesside


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, terrible location.

My Cossie turbo looks brand new in comparison to the 996.
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Sarfend
Suzuka


Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 1175
Location: Leigh on Sea


PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok51mon wrote:
Thanks for all the nice pm's guys.

For the few that asked, the labour work was commenced at Porsche's Head Office hence why the return/send address is Porsche RG (good eye!).

Happy to put up their labour invoice but be warned it's cheap ....

Conclusively, there is a cost effective way that is proper which includes being advised by Porsches Workshop Manager and Head Technician every step of the way.

They actually have a department dedicated to the older car not under warranty.

In this department the labour price is deliberately lower for cars 10+ year old (please correct me on this as this is an approx) to £105 per hour inc vat iirc. Usually its something ridiculous like £185 plus vat.



All the Best

S Thumb


Simon, please let me know which OPCs only charge £105ph for 996s.Llast bits of work completed on my turbo s on top of a minor service, was £168ph. So 9e's £80ph plus vat looks pretty good to me.

Great thread gents and as has been said, this is what forums are about provided they don't descend into insults or worse (which of course this one didn't) hence its value.
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 670



PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sarfend wrote:
ok51mon wrote:
Thanks for all the nice pm's guys.

For the few that asked, the labour work was commenced at Porsche's Head Office hence why the return/send address is Porsche RG (good eye!).

Happy to put up their labour invoice but be warned it's cheap ....

Conclusively, there is a cost effective way that is proper which includes being advised by Porsches Workshop Manager and Head Technician every step of the way.

They actually have a department dedicated to the older car not under warranty.

In this department the labour price is deliberately lower for cars 10+ year old (please correct me on this as this is an approx) to £105 per hour inc vat iirc. Usually its something ridiculous like £185 plus vat.



All the Best

S Thumb


Simon, please let me know which OPCs only charge £105ph for 996s.Llast bits of work completed on my turbo s on top of a minor service, was £168ph. So 9e's £80ph plus vat looks pretty good to me.

Great thread gents and as has been said, this is what forums are about provided they don't descend into insults or worse (which of course this one didn't) hence its value.


Sure,

Date: The job was completed in mid 2015;

Location:Head Office in Reading (Porsche Centre Reading).

I dealt with;

Jack Dudman- Workshop Manager

Cannot remember his name-The Head Technician-

Tim Sweet- Head Of Service

Extremely knowledgeable guy Tim. He knows all the tricks and actually recommended AET turbos to make the the process more cost effective.

He said as a disclaimer that the warranty for the turbocharger sat with AET (1 Year) and couldn't be a responsibility of Porsche but everything else they supplied would be under their warranty of service and parts.

Before his recommendation I didn't know a Turbo rebuild service was even available to the general public.

I had the existing actuator on the turbo replaced with an OEM rebuilt one (£60- on an exchange basis) but If could do it again I would simply have bought the Turbo Smart actuators as they are far far more superior in build quality and there is no threat of them ever seizing in the future.

Someone else on this forum asked about actuator recommendations and I commented much more there.

The labour I was charged for the job was £577.50 plus vat so that is either 105 ph inc vat or plus vat . It was probably more plus vat. However, and this was a fantastic thing I found. Porsche have book time recommendations for doing jobs i.e turbo replacement.
If you exceed the book time they do not charge you anymore.

Im not sure if the book time is estimated on new vehicles but, my car certainly exceeded the book time.

They also had me kicking about in a Porsche Cayman while my car was in.

I hope this helps

Best

Si


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