She''s in at Hartech getting the full £10k rebuild...

Well mines champion :thumbs:

Anyone got % figures. Come on Dammit, you must have some facts and figures on 997.1 versus 997.2 woes??

% figures are pointless; more relevant is the plain truth that every single Porsche specialist that I spoke to before buying a 996 had engines ready to be rebuilt ,engines that they were rebuilding and long histories of the same...the specialist rebuilding my engine (RSR PORSCHA) is run by 2 ex Porsche formen and have the same story to tell...there are some businesses that exist on simply rebuilding these engines...

I know people don't want to accept the following but these engines are fundamentally flawed, don't wear well and can break without warning leaving owners with massive bills...

There are members on this forum that will say my 100k miles plus is running like a charm...the fact is that the engine will be really,really worn...

Based on all of this what I wonder which one will the 'better" engine at the end:
-Gen 1 full rebuild (like Hartech, LN etc.)?
-Gen 2 DFI engine?

For the price difference you can rebuild especially when looking for a manual.

GMG said:

% figures are pointless; more relevant is the plain truth that every single Porsche specialist that I spoke to before buying a 996 had engines ready to be rebuilt ,engines that they were rebuilding and long histories of the same...the specialist rebuilding my engine (RSR PORSCHA) is run by 2 ex Porsche formen and have the same story to tell...there are some businesses that exist on simply rebuilding these engines...

I know people don't want to accept the following but these engines are fundamentally flawed, don't wear well and can break without warning leaving owners with massive bills...

There are members on this forum that will say my 100k miles plus is running like a charm...the fact is that the engine will be really,really worn...

Click to expand...

Well I for one don't buy into your pessimism. I'm fairly certain the numbers/facts will totally discredit your theory. There are many, many engine builders out there and it's not just Porsche ffs!

How many 996 or 997 engines out there that haven't gone pop? Quite a few I'd say.

I think you're basing your judgment purely on bitter experience. Get a grip man.

...actually I am not pessimistic; rather realistic unless people believe you know better than Hartech for example (revered) on here?

If I could be bothered I would dig out their threads that have discussed explicitly how the majority of these engines wear significantly, which can he seen when stripped down either for pre-emptive or remedial work...especially those up on miles which will be the majority on the market.

I'm simply attempting to use my experience and the original OPs experience to offer potential buyers an authentic insight into the risks...the sad thing is that you and many on this forum appear perversely unable to acknowledge this;rather naively peddling the same unhelpful rhetoric that most will be fine!

Please excuse me but I'm a lurker here but prospective 911 acquirer (997.2 or perhaps 991.1)

Does any one know what the actual failure rate is on these cars? Are there any collective statistics that give this information and the mileage at which the failure occurred?

911DG said:

Hi guys

Anyway - moan over, £10k bill coming - hey Ho. MY Question is, is there anything I should also get done while she's there and the engine is taken apart ??? Don't get this opportunity very often so I thought I'd ask you lot.

As usual I bow to your advise and it's always appreciated.

Cheers

Dan

Click to expand...

With respect to posters on here I'd have thought Baz was the 'expert' to ask

:?: anyway well done for taking the plunge

bludger said:

Please excuse me but I'm a lurker here but prospective 911 acquirer (997.2 or perhaps 991.1)

Does any one know what the actual failure rate is on these cars? Are there any collective statistics that give this information and the mileage at which the failure occurred?

Click to expand...

With a 997.2 or 991.1 you should be fine. Odd incidents of 997.2 failures have been reported but after 8 years there's no sign of any of the horror stories that have afflicted the earlier water cooled Carreras.

Thankfully in our great country we are all allowed a say :thumb:
It is true that the 997.1 has some engine problems but we only hear the sad stories! I feel for the op and anyone who ends up with a car in hartech but they are still great cars! I've had 2 x 997 1 x 996 over a 9 year period. I've never had an engine out job just normal wear and tear with a average repair/servicing of around £1200 pa I've always believed these cars cost approx £2k pa to look after so 9 x £800 =£7200 nearly enough for a rebuild. If you get caught at the start of ownership don't fall out with it keep it and enjoy! In the end you will love it and the average ownership costs will balance out! Good luck op :thumb:

Every engine in every car on the planet 'will need a rebuild at some point', not just 996/997's. Reading online will always blow things out of proportion.

It's a 15 yr old sports car, some will have been thrashed, some will have been nursed, some will have been maintained properly and others on the cheap, etc etc.

I think it's pot luck as with any second hand car, 911's cost a bit more than average to fix but that comes with the territory, frankly if a £10k rebuild is going to bankrupt you then you shouldn't be buying a 911.

bludger said:

Please excuse me but I'm a lurker here but prospective 911 acquirer (997.2 or perhaps 991.1)

Does any one know what the actual failure rate is on these cars? Are there any collective statistics that give this information and the mileage at which the failure occurred?

Click to expand...

blunger, these debates rage on and on, but as a prospective owner this would be my advice to you. its widely accepted that some 997.1 have an issue with borescore the number that is widely accepted it around 5% of cars the other issue that affected early 997.1 was IMS bearing failure cars up to approx march 06 were at risk but some 05 cars had the newer bearing so you can only really go of the engine number to be sure if you looking at a car pre march 06. the numbers that are affected by IMS failure is accepted as 8% of cars build in this time period. the argument that all 997.1 will need a rebuild at some point is a quite weak argument as it would be acceptable to say every single car ever made will need a rebuild at some point in its life unless it ends up scrap.
Anyway back to you and your purchase . If you looking at a late gen1 or early gen2 then I assume you have a 30k to 40k budget. So you wont be looking at cars pre the new IMS so that can be discounted . Its accepted that the 997.1 3.6 is a stronger unit to the 3.8 and also the tip is more prone to borescore than the manual due to the load on the engine when it uses 2nd gear as the default pull away gear. so in theory a post march 06 3.6 manual would be the lowest risk gen1 the 3.6 is generally cheaper and in theory is less likely to have been pushed hard given the fact that if you wanted to push a car hard you would probably have brought a 3.8 . Next option get a Hartech rebuilt gen1 these seem to be high 20k low 30k . The gen1 is a more liniear car to drive than the gen2 which loses a little of the driver involvement due to tech, in the same way that the 996 is more liniear and a rawer drivers car than the 997.1.
the 997.2 DFI engine was accepted as a better engine in every way and less prone to issues due to the allusil liners used and 40% less moving parts. the gen2 is now reaching 10 yrs old and some higher mileage cars, so its inevitable that we are starting to see a few with issues starting to appear, but there is nothing yet in significant enough numbers to be able to say its a failing in the build quality or design of the DFI engine ,as with any engine made from every maker theres some form of failure rate. The good news is Porsche will offer a warranty up to 14 yrs on their cars for about 1k pa it will need to be stock and pass an 111 point check to be accepted and you need to have owned the car for 90 days to get it unless its transfered with the car, so if thats your plan then ensure the supplying dealer gives you a fully comprehensive 3 month warranty when you buy the car then get it into the Porsche scheme (the car doesnt need to have been brought by you from an OPC to get this). there are also other warranties out there from indies most offer a labour only warranty but as this is often more than 50% of the cost of any work its worth considering especially as they will accept modified cars in many cases and some offer it to cars older than 14 years as well. I hope that info helps you with your search.
Before you buy one you need to accept that these cars will cost an ave of 2k pa to maintain, now its worth stressing that it could be a drip of 2k pa or it could come as very low running for a few years then a biggish hit in one year . this will often depend on what the previous owner has done etc. but you need to know and accept that if you keep a car for say 4 years it will probably have cost you 8k ave but as said this does depend on other factors . eg my gen1 cost me about 1k pa for the 4.5 yrs I had it, my gen2 has cost me 8k in the 18 months I have had it so 911 for 6 yrs spend 12k ave 2k pa. so with my gen1 either the previous owner or the future owner will get a bigger bill to ave that car out .the previous owner of my gen2 clearly got off with low running costs and I got the big bill. so its swings and rounderbouts but plan to save 2k pa for maintance cost and if your lucky and its lower then use the money towards your next car. on a positive these cars dont depreciate like most marques so you wont lose the same money on a 997 as you would on say a BMW so it makes the maintance costs of 2k pa much more palatable and you should end up with 911 driving for very much the same as BMW costs :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Phil997

Phil, thanks for that; there's a lot of very useful information there that I hadn't gleaned before.

However, my OP was more general curiosity about these engine failures. Porsche changed the engine for the second generation but was this normal development or were they aware of the failings and realised that it had to be changed? Also, if they were aware of it why did they not offer to pay for rectification should it become necessary, after all this was a serious failure in a very expensive car with a reputation to maintain. I'm just curious.

bludger said:

........ Porsche changed the engine for the second generation but was this normal development or were they aware of the failings and realised that it had to be changed?

Also, if they were aware of it why did they not offer to pay for rectification should it become necessary, after all this was a serious failure in a very expensive car with a reputation to maintain. I'm just curious.

Click to expand...

The engine change was part of normal development but driven by the need to reduce emissions. In the same way that the basis of the 996 engines was carried on in the 997.1 the basis of the Gen2 engines were carried over to the 991.1. It wasn't changed again a until the 991.2 came out.

Nobody knows how many 996/997 engines Porsche may have replaced under warranty but it probably wouldn't have been many as most of the issues materialised several years later.

This is why the 997.2/991.1 is generally considered to be a safe bet. It's been around long enough for later issues to have occurred.

bludger, Terry has answered that question perfectly ,and Porsche would/could never admit to engine failures in the 996/997.1 as a class action suit would follow and VAG would dump the marque and that would be the end of Porsche. I think in some small way Porsche have tried to help without admitting liability by several years ago extending their warranties out to 14yrs to try and assist the enthusiast who looks after their car and keeps it stock .In an attempt to retain brand loyalty in the used car sector as they must realise these are the guys who will be buying the 991/992 in a few years time which in turn allows those owners to then buy another new Porsche keeping new sales and the workshops all happy. :thumb: :thumb:

T8 and Phil997

Thanks to both and that makes sense.