997 Questions

inchyra · 28 Jun 2018

Can't comment on tip /pdk as haven't driven either but not sure I understand the logic of paying an additional £10k you haven't got to avoid a small risk of a £5-10k repair?? I bought my 997.1 a couple of years ago and love it. And I'm told they sound better than the gen2 so what else do you need to know??!!

jpsh120 · 28 Jun 2018

Phil 997 said:
the tip defaults as you probably know to pull away in 2nd this puts a strain on the engine and is the reason given for tips scoring mone than manuals

Where does this info come from, Phil?

Not disputing it, just curious.

resigner · 28 Jun 2018

jpsh120 said:
Phil 997 said:

the tip defaults as you probably know to pull away in 2nd this puts a strain on the engine and is the reason given for tips scoring mone than manuals

Click to expand...

Where does this info come from, Phil?

Not disputing it, just curious.

Baz of Hartech fame, and others, seen this referred to many times.

easternjets · 28 Jun 2018

My own slant on this is get a PDK or a manual, I'm sorry but the 'tip' is an auto box and if you want to do spirited driving they're a pain, sorry but they are. Whoever thought putting buttons on the wheel was a good idea on a £100k supercar was mad. Yes you can put paddles on but it's still a sluggish gear change and if you drive in normal auto mode it's as frustrating as hell on roundabouts, I sold mine and bought a PDK, yes it was a big step up in budget but I love driving it and would have another one in a heartbeat, it is an Auto by definition but it's really a manual box with an auto change.
The only good thing about the 'tip' box is that they are relatively bomb proof, as long as they are serviced and oil changed. There have been issues with very few PDK boxes and as far as I've been told they are a replacement item, nobody seems to be able to service/repair them. Also you can't over rev the engine with an auto box.
This is just my opinion but I've had both, I kept making excuses up for the 'tip' but not with the PDK, it is superb.

Counter Of Beans · 28 Jun 2018

inchyra said:
Can't comment on tip /pdk as haven't driven either but not sure I understand the logic of paying an additional £10k you haven't got to avoid a small risk of a £5-10k repair?? I bought my 997.1 a couple of years ago and love it. And I'm told they sound better than the gen2 so what else do you need to know??!!

Point taken, but I suppose the logic is twofold:
1) the extra £10k doesn't vanish, it maintains its value along with the rest of the car, and
2) the repair would be an absolute pain to get sorted, especially if your engine goes kaboom without warning

It's like any risk/reward decision - how risk averse/tolerant are you?

maph · 28 Jun 2018

Counter Of Beans said:
No-one knows what % of cars are affected, but I knew I couldn't drive around thinking "it's a ticking time bomb". Not least because I used to own a BMW 335i with the infamous N54 engine; never drove it because it's such a fragile engine - or so the interweb told me.

Along with the 997.1 chocolate engines the N54 is another great example of scaremongering on the web.......

I have a E91 335i with the N54 as my daily. It was modified by Birds 50K miles ago and is running 400 bhp or so and it has not skipped a beat. Now at 75K miles and only thing that has been replaced apart from consumables is a water pump at 60K ish and an ABS sensor.

The N54 is far from a fragile engine, it has lots of forged internals (over specced by BMW who downgraded the internals for the N55) and will run 500 BHP+ and do big miles, some people in the states are running highly tuned ones with 200K + miles.

Unlike the 997.1 (with internal weaknesses) the N54 only has a few weak ancillaries (wastegate rattle, injectors, hpfp) but like the 997.1 warm them up before you drive them hard, change the oil regularly and if they fail you fix it. Only difference is worse case on a N54 it will cost you approx £2K, 997.1 could cost £10K :thumb:

Tobyone · 28 Jun 2018

Phil 997 said:
Robert, heres my 2p on the 997 . the info below are the pre and post IMS bearing upgrade , you ideally want the newer more robuste IMS rule of thumb is post march 06 cars have the new IMS but go by the engine numbers as there are late and mid 05 cars with the new IMS

Last IMS revision before no IMS (Gen2 MA1 block):

997 Carrera 3.6 with engine numbers from M96/0569507475 are the new IMS design.

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
07475 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.

997 Carrera S 3.8 with engine numbers from M97/0168509790 are the new IMS design.

M97/01 = 997 3.8 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
8 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
09790 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.

ok thats IMS out of the way.
now the borescore issue , its true to say that about 5% of cars have suffered this and the highest % is 3.8 engine tiptronic cars.

the tip defaults as you probably know to pull away in 2nd this puts a strain on the engine and is the reason given for tips scoring mone than manuals .

So assuming you go for a car with the newer IMS bearing the lowest risk of scoring would be a 3.6 manual followed by a 3.6 tip , So your plan of a C4 tickes the engine box if you go tip try and get used to driving it in manual mode that way you pull away in 1st , its how I used to drive my gen1 tip which I had for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold with 89k on the clock and it was borescoped clean as a whistle so they are not all chocolate engines as some wpuld have you believe remember 5% may have scoring even if its as high as 10% that still leaves 90% of cars that are great and no scoring.

Other than those few things they are great cars and you will enjoy driving them as you did your 996 . with all 996 and 997s a PPI with a borescope is £300 very very well spent but use a known and approved guy/place ask on here as a recent post had a member get a ppi and borescope and 4k later the cars scored this doesnt happen in 4k miles so it was a ***** PPI but the place that did it just washed their hands saying it was down to the way he drove it over the last 4k miles thats BS and they were named and shamed on here. .good luck keep us posted. :thumb: :thumb:

mmmm just only last thing to consider before you drop the 996 idea .
what about Baz Harts own personal ex car with a rebuild . I dont know the car but imiagine its as bullet proof as can be.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Phil well said, nice one.

Constantly folks say oooh stay away from Gen1 cars.
Most of it is blown so much out of proportion.
I have an aerokitted Gen1 C4s / Tip model.

I drive it in manual and now have got used to the rockers and changing gear with the rockers being in all sorts of positions as the steering wheel rotates no problem at all.

Never had any issues since purchase, it was a well looked after low milage one from on OPC.

tom_nieto · 28 Jun 2018

inchyra said:
Can't comment on tip /pdk as haven't driven either but not sure I understand the logic of paying an additional £10k you haven't got to avoid a small risk of a £5-10k repair?? I bought my 997.1 a couple of years ago and love it. And I'm told they sound better than the gen2 so what else do you need to know??!!

This was my thought process in pulling the trigger when I did rather than saving for ages or financing the rest of the purchase.

Phil 997 · 28 Jun 2018

HSC911 said:
Phil 997 said:

Robert, heres my 2p on the 997...

Click to expand...

2p :dont know: :sad:

More like a Krugerrand :grin:

:thumb:

:floor: :floor: ok my bitcion on the subject :grin: :grin: :thumb:

Phil 997 · 28 Jun 2018

resigner said:
jpsh120 said:

Phil 997 said:

the tip defaults as you probably know to pull away in 2nd this puts a strain on the engine and is the reason given for tips scoring mone than manuals

Click to expand...

Where does this info come from, Phil?

Not disputing it, just curious.

Click to expand...

Baz of Hartech fame, and others, seen this referred to many times.

yes as Resigner says Hartech and others have seen substantually more tips in for scoring than manuals having said that my old gen1 was a tip and when I sold it on 89k miles 50k by me over 4.5 years it was scoped and clean as a whistle but I had followed Hartechs advise always under 3k revs until fully warm, fitted LTT, ran on millers 10w50, and drove it in manual mode using 1st for 90% of the time which I actually prefered as it was like haveing most of the control of a manual with the lazyness of not needing a clutch :grin: :grin:

Phil 997 · 28 Jun 2018

Tobyone said:
Phil 997 said:

Robert, heres my 2p on the 997 . the info below are the pre and post IMS bearing upgrade , you ideally want the newer more robuste IMS rule of thumb is post march 06 cars have the new IMS but go by the engine numbers as there are late and mid 05 cars with the new IMS

Last IMS revision before no IMS (Gen2 MA1 block):

997 Carrera 3.6 with engine numbers from M96/0569507475 are the new IMS design.

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
07475 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.

997 Carrera S 3.8 with engine numbers from M97/0168509790 are the new IMS design.

M97/01 = 997 3.8 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
8 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
09790 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.

ok thats IMS out of the way.
now the borescore issue , its true to say that about 5% of cars have suffered this and the highest % is 3.8 engine tiptronic cars.

the tip defaults as you probably know to pull away in 2nd this puts a strain on the engine and is the reason given for tips scoring mone than manuals .

So assuming you go for a car with the newer IMS bearing the lowest risk of scoring would be a 3.6 manual followed by a 3.6 tip , So your plan of a C4 tickes the engine box if you go tip try and get used to driving it in manual mode that way you pull away in 1st , its how I used to drive my gen1 tip which I had for 4.5 years did 50k miles sold with 89k on the clock and it was borescoped clean as a whistle so they are not all chocolate engines as some wpuld have you believe remember 5% may have scoring even if its as high as 10% that still leaves 90% of cars that are great and no scoring.

Other than those few things they are great cars and you will enjoy driving them as you did your 996 . with all 996 and 997s a PPI with a borescope is £300 very very well spent but use a known and approved guy/place ask on here as a recent post had a member get a ppi and borescope and 4k later the cars scored this doesnt happen in 4k miles so it was a ***** PPI but the place that did it just washed their hands saying it was down to the way he drove it over the last 4k miles thats BS and they were named and shamed on here. .good luck keep us posted. :thumb: :thumb:

mmmm just only last thing to consider before you drop the 996 idea .
what about Baz Harts own personal ex car with a rebuild . I dont know the car but imiagine its as bullet proof as can be.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Click to expand...

Phil well said, nice one.

Constantly folks say oooh stay away from Gen1 cars.
Most of it is blown so much out of proportion.
I have an aerokitted Gen1 C4s / Tip model.

I drive it in manual and now have got used to the rockers and changing gear with the rockers being in all sorts of positions as the steering wheel rotates no problem at all.

Never had any issues since purchase, it was a well looked after low milage one from on OPC.

I agree Toby the rockers are quite easy to use and I actually changed my wheel to a gen2 wheel with rockers which are even more comfortable to use , I actually liked the fact you can change up and down on the same rocker unlike the flappies which one changes up the other changes down ,I had that on my DB9 and really didnt like it whereas others swear by it so each to their own. :thumb: :thumb: as for scoring its still a relatively low % of cars meaning 90plus percent are great yes you dont want to be one of that 5 plus % thats why a ppi and borescope is a must . but it really isnt a reason to not buy a 997.1 , in the same way as theres a risk of getting run over or in a accident if you leave your house but we still go out and very very few of us get run over. mind you theres a lot of me to run over so you would want a 4x4 with hill climb to run me over properly :floor: :floor: :thumb:

Robert SausageTrousers · 29 Jun 2018

I had a drive of a friends 3.8 Carrera S Tiptronic, wow, it's amazing the difference that extra .2 makes! :lol: It felt so much more responsive than the 3.6.

resigner · 29 Jun 2018

Robert SausageTrousers said:
I had a drive of a friends 3.8 Carrera S Tiptronic, wow, it's amazing the difference that extra .2 makes! :lol: It felt so much more responsive than the 3.6.

Maybe, but a Gen 2 non S still has 345bhp against a Gen 1 S at 355, there really is no difference, and if you are set on an auto, really try and squeeze into a high mileage Gen 2 car. Tip is horrific in my opinion, but I really don't like autos! I would only consider an auto if you are stuck in traffic every day, like Mrs resigned who has an Auto BMW M240i......

Phil 997 · 29 Jun 2018

Robert SausageTrousers said:
I had a drive of a friends 3.8 Carrera S Tiptronic, wow, it's amazing the difference that extra .2 makes! :lol: It felt so much more responsive than the 3.6.

Robert , heres my next 2 ZLOTY :grin: on the subject, the options are

1/ buy a 3.8 tip and make sure you get a good one PPI borescope etc and follow the Hartech recomendations this will give you the best chance of remaining one of the 95% and not becoming one of the 5% :grin: :thumb:

2/get a 3.6 tip add IPD throttle body remap and 200cell cats with sports boxes and make your more robust 3.6 quicker than a stock 3.8
3/ buy a leggy milage 3.8 for 16/17k and send it to hartch for a rebuild giving you a freshly rebuild bullet proof car for 26/27k
4/ buy a hartech rebuild 3.8 car

those are your options and each comes with a risk v cost you need to consider
and will very much depend on you personally but remember the risks are relatively low but are to be considered.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

tom_nieto · 30 Jun 2018

resigner said:
Robert SausageTrousers said:

I had a drive of a friends 3.8 Carrera S Tiptronic, wow, it's amazing the difference that extra .2 makes! :lol: It felt so much more responsive than the 3.6.

Click to expand...

Maybe, but a Gen 2 non S still has 345bhp against a Gen 1 S at 355, there really is no difference, and if you are set on an auto, really try and squeeze into a high mileage Gen 2 car. Tip is horrific in my opinion, but I really don't like autos! I would only consider an auto if you are stuck in traffic every day, like Mrs resigned who has an Auto BMW M240i......

This is where the discussion gets more interesting. I'm sure there are slight nuances between each of the engines, but on the road they're just as fast as each other with a manual transmission. The real difference between the generations is the PDK which is where the discussion gets interesting!

The price crossover between gen 1 and 2 is happening and as a result you've got lots of choice... which I didn't have when I bought mine 18 months ago! I think I might well have gone for a higher mileage gen 2 if there were any around at even close to my budget (which crept up anyway!).

Just make sure you test drive lots during the sunny weather and preferably don't get too obsessive so you can actually enjoy owning one in the summer!

997 Questions

inchyra

Trainee

jpsh120

Sao Paulo

resigner

Barcelona

easternjets

Paul Ricard

Counter Of Beans

Hockenheim

maph

Spa-Francorchamps

Tobyone

Nurburgring

tom_nieto

Montreal

Phil 997

Le Mans

Phil 997

Le Mans

Phil 997

Le Mans

Robert SausageTrousers

Nurburgring

resigner

Barcelona

Phil 997

Le Mans

tom_nieto

Montreal

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