Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Let's talk about tracking - The Hunter Hawkeye
As some may know I went to the local Kwik Fit the other day to have my alignment done and check out the Hunter Hawkeye system. Thought I'd do a little write-up about my observations and also maybe have a discussion on the system. I'll maybe do a write-up on my actual car's tracking as it's for a different discussion to this.
So, once I drove my car up on the ramps and the Kwik fit fitter swiftly closed the doors behind me (as he believed leaving the doors open fluctuated the readings) and we were on to the computer to start the process. Within minutes I was presented with a screen with all the parameters the machine measures and the tolerance bands for each one. They went something like this:
Front
Camber - 0 to minus 30 minutes
Caster - 8 degrees +/- 30 minutes
Toe - 0 to 5 minutes
Rear
Camber - minus 55 minutes to minus 1 degree 25 minutes
Toe - plus 5 minutes to plus 15 minutes
These are for the Carrera 4 996 and obviously other models differ.
Now my initial observation before we even did anything was, the international general rule of thumb of any measuring system is it MUST be 10 times more accurate than the tolerance band being measured. Anyone who knows anything about measuring will dismiss any measuring system not capable of doing so. It wouldn't even get through the front door of a quality department. So, the tolerance band of the front Toe is 5 minutes (and rear 10 minutes). The incremental resolution of the Hunter Hawkeye is 1 minute (on the display). Obviously 10 times more accurate that a 5 minute tolerance band would be an accuracy of 30 seconds. Or to put it the other way, the smallest tolerance band the Hunter Hawkeye would be deemed acceptable to measure would be a 10 minute tolerance band. So not acceptable to measure the front Toe and only borderline to measure the rear Toe. I think we can accept it is acceptable to measure the Camber and Castor as their tolerance bands are much greater.
On to getting some measurements. The fitter fit the wheel target quick grip adaptors. Now these just hook on over the tyres holding the adaptors flat against the alloys. There didn't seem any need to ensure they were sat central against the wheel but the fitter did check they were flat up against the wheel and in my case sat against all 5 knuckles of each spoke. Once all 5 are fitted the fitter then has to do some sort of process where I can only presume the overhead camera that do the measuring are setting some form of Datums to work from as the fitter turns the steering lock to lock (without engine running so no power steering) and then roll the car forwards until the computer says stop.
Once this process has been done, the computer then goes through the process on measuring all the parameter of alignment. I don't know how the software is written so don't know whether the program can compensate the the wheel adaptors not being central or any slight run-out of a face of an alloy wheel. A quick bit of trigonometry tells us that over a distance of 200mm (say the diameter of where the adaptor sits on the alloy) 5 minutes equates to around 0.3mm - not much!
Once all measurement are taken, the fitter then goes through each corner turning the relevant nuts and bolts (shown on the computer) until the reading goes from the red (out of spec.) into the green. All very simple and interesting to watch as each adjustment is made. Once all adjustments are made, the fitter then hits 'print' and the printer churns out a nice diagram of 'before' and 'after' of all parameters measured. All very interesting and good visual graphics to explain to the greatest novice what's actually being measured and adjusted. Pay the bill and you're on your way.
The deal was free check. £50 for any front end adjustment, £25 for each rear wheel adjustment (So £100 if any front and both rears need a tickle). For £120 you have a 2 year warranty with as many checks in that time window you want and 8 checks where adjustments are made, however much adjusting needs on each check. This can be done by driving in to any UK Kwik Fit establishment with a Hunter with just your name and reg. plate.
Obviously I took this deal out, especially when we were unable to get every parameter in spec.
Now a few questions from me that aren't addressed by Kwik Fit, Porsche, Hunter's website or anywhere else I had a quick browse on the web:
1. How can a system not deemed acceptable to measure some of the parameters be acceptable?
2. Does tyre pressures influence the readings of the system?
3. Should the car have a full tank of fuel, or empty, or halfway - would this influence the readings?
4. How repeatable is the system?
5. Define accuracy as all that's stated by Hunter is it's accurate?
After the fitter had finished making adjustments and we were happy with the results, I asked him to reset the computer, re enter model, etc. and do the test again. The results were different - to the point that some in spec. were now out of spec.
I'm talking differences of 7 minutes to 20 minutes on rear LH Toe. 1 minute to 7 minutes on rear RH Toe. Also 1 minute and 5 minute discrepancy on both rear Cambers.
In a couple of weeks I'll bob in again for a free check and see what results they give me then.....also I'm due some new back tyres soon so will bob in again once those are fitted.
Hunter's USP seems to be "Other wheel alignment machines don’t come close to matching the productivity and profit enhancing power of the HawkEye Elite® wheel alignment machine." "Say goodbye to wasted shop time"
Most guff on their website seems to be about speed and profit and not much in terms of accuracy.
Now I'm in no way saying this isn't the best system on the market, or even rubbish, but just want to get my head around the importance of the accuracy of this kit and also the tolerance bands Porsche specify that the car should be within. Is it all smoke and mirrors, is the equipment capable, are the specs. baloney??
Last edited by alex yates on Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
FZP Albert Park
Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Posts: 1711 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject:
Alex
When I had my car done at CG, Chris put some balast in the car to account for my body weight and my fuel level was conveniently at the level he would ideally want to set up at. Tyre pressure were checked prior to the geo set up.
At the next coffee, I'll take you for a drive in mine and then we'll go for a drive in yours to compare the number of micro inputs that you and I both put in to drive down a straight piece of road. _________________ 997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
This is very interesting and I will watch this thread closely . I accept CG are the best of the best for this , but its a way for me to go for a GEO so I am interested in options but only if they are not smoke and mirrors .
I had a GEO done ages ago at an Indy and also wondered why tyre pressures were not checked first and no allowance to the driver etc , needless to say it ended up in tolerance but not perfect _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
FZP Albert Park
Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Posts: 1711 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject:
Phil 997 wrote:
This is very interesting and I will watch this thread closely . I accept CG are the best of the best for this , but its a way for me to go for a GEO so I am interested in options but only if they are not smoke and mirrors .
I had a GEO done ages ago at an Indy and also wondered why tyre pressures were not checked first and no allowance to the driver etc , needless to say it ended up in tolerance but not perfect
Phil
My experience with CG was first class and my bang for buck calculator is on the tight a*** side with its calibration. The best way I can summarise how my car is that I now have 2 cars back. A better GT car and a better sports car. If there is some way you can dovetail it into another task up that way with your business, you wont regret it. If your car has a normal Porsche set up then you'll definitely feel the difference. In fact, if you aren't impressed with what you get back I'll make an excuse to come down south and buy you lunch, and with all due respect, I get the impression that you're not shy with the fork. _________________ 997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
alex yates Donnington
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 12764 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
Shoulda said 'liquid lunch' Frank. That'd swing it
Bacon smoothie _________________ Current: 2009 997.2 C2S
Previous: 2008 Cayman 2.7, 2002 Audi TT, 1999 BMW 318!
FZP Albert Park
Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Posts: 1711 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject:
nigel99 wrote:
alex yates wrote:
Shoulda said 'liquid lunch' Frank. That'd swing it
Bacon smoothie
Tbh I figured the day would go
1. Lunch
2. Beers
3. Dinner
4. Beers/Spirits
5. Spearmint Rhino (Or establishment of equal standing)
_________________ 997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
Nimrod Montreal
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 530 Location: East Midlands
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:42 pm Post subject:
I have been to Chris who I think is the best geo guy I have ever used and used a Hunter a few times as well.
I think that the operator of the Hunter can minimise the error if they are familiar with the kit and take their time . Local to me there used to be a guy who was very good and enjoyed using it but in general most of them haven't got a clue.
There is no reason why we can't improve things by checking tyre pressures and even taking a weight with us to simulate us being in the car.
But Chris is an expert and corner waiting makes a big difference I believe on 911's which your average Kwik fit guy probably has never heard off. I am sure there are others who are as good people have used . My old next door neighbour was a semi pro rally driver and used to set up his car with string and was crazy quick !
For my crappy Audi I would use a Hunter happily but for a 911 I would want somebody who knows what they are doing. As FZP said already my 993 and gt4 tracked much better and don't require as many tiny corrections when they have been set up properly. _________________ GT4
993 c4s Artic silver Boxster red
997.2 c4s pdk Guards .
997.1 c2s Hartech rebuild LWF RSS mounts sold .
996 c4s Hartech rebuild- sold
993 C2s TorB HID,Dansk 100 Cell Cat, Rss Mounts, PS10's, LWF and GT3 clutch - sold and still missed.
deMort Reims
Joined: 21 Mar 2015 Posts: 4259 Location: Brighton
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject:
First of all im going to point out this isnt my area of expertise .
The hunter system is one my old OPC upgraded to after their bisebark system .
There is a big difference between CG and Kwickfit ..
There is probably a big difference in cost as well .
1/ you pretty much lost me here .
2/ you HAVE to set tyre pressures before doing the geo.
3/ half tank of fuel is best as that will be closer to the average you will have in the car , you also need a full screen wash bottle and a corner weight to simulate a driver .
4/you test the system , then adjust it .. then you should test and adjust again . If not then as you adjust each corner it can upset the other corners so a double check is the best way .
5/ Buggered if i know ..
If you get your geo checked at an OPC then its 1.5 hours labour .. if you want to do that 8 times in 2 years then its 1.5 hours labour PER time .
Kwick fit might not be perfect but they will get the geo pretty much there .. from my experence i doubt you would get a lot better at an OPC .. you would at somewhere like CG though .
Cost is the factor at the end of the day .. i still think this is a pretty dam good deal .
As i said though im no expert .. i say it as i see it _________________
7pm - 9pm
At an Indy these days !
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
Shoulda said 'liquid lunch' Frank. That'd swing it
Bacon smoothie
Tbh I figured the day would go
1. Lunch
2. Beers
3. Dinner
4. Beers/Spirits
5. Spearmint Rhino (Or establishment of equal standing)
Frank sod the Geo when are we doing the above , we have a "for your eye only" and a "wiggle" down here as well as the "spearmint rhino" (so I am told lol),A few of the guys I know work the door of SR which is my excuse for why I know the door staff there and its not because I use my frequent flyer card there
PS what happened to Breakfast and beer before Lunch what do you think I am a born again christian or something _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
On a more sensible note I might have a chat with a few of the guys down here and see if we can organise a run to CG and all go for a set up , would make a good day out . Its a 2.45 hr drive from us
PS this is in the reviews of Bournemouth Spearmint Rhino
"Took my family for a sunday roast at spearmint rhino."
can only assume he was on holiday from ooop norf
reminds me of when I went see Sticky Vicky in Benidorm and there were Brit families with young kids eating dinner while the show was on. very odd _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
cheshire911 Estoril
Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Posts: 3622
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:21 am Post subject:
You'll not get "a few of you guys in a geo setup at CG"
There is Chris and there is Pete. That's it, two pairs of hands between three ramps. Email for a slot and see when "few of you" can be accommodated.
Its a 2.5 hr each way trip for me. Nothing compared to guys who come from the French Riviera, Scotland, NI and Republic of Ireland to have their vehicles set up at CG.
I had mine set up there and transformed the car. Both Chris and Pete know what they are doing. You buy into a process at CG. Its an inclusive process as you are welcome to stay throughout from start to finish. Its not 30-60 mins on a ramp at an Indy with a Hunter Hawkeye laser alignment jig.
Nothing compares......
Try it and you'll see the difference in the CG approach. _________________ 996 2002 X50 Turbo Manual
"Once bitten; forever smitten"
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
Thanks Cheshire, I really must do this, I spend so much money on mods and havent yet had a top rate GEO done , I know I am missing a trick here. I am guessing its a few hours so probably only 2 to 4 cars would be practical . _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
alex yates Donnington
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 12764 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
You'll not get "a few of you guys in a geo setup at CG"
There is Chris and there is Pete. That's it, two pairs of hands between three ramps. Email for a slot and see when "few of you" can be accommodated.
Its a 2.5 hr each way trip for me. Nothing compared to guys who come from the French Riviera, Scotland, NI and Republic of Ireland to have their vehicles set up at CG.
I had mine set up there and transformed the car. Both Chris and Pete know what they are doing. You buy into a process at CG. Its an inclusive process as you are welcome to stay throughout from start to finish. Its not 30-60 mins on a ramp at an Indy with a Hunter Hawkeye laser alignment jig.
Nothing compares......
Try it and you'll see the difference in the CG approach.
I like how on their website it tells you to bring sandwiches!
I think it would be a fascinating few hours out.
Back on topic, I know little about the technicalities, but I will say this- my dailies are set up with a Hunter at my local tyre place and the tyre wear has been exemplary. Its undoubtedly fine for general road use (which on average is at low speeds). No doubt a sensei could tell the difference with CG but the Kwik-Fit/Hunter process is aimed at a different market. Horses for courses and all that. _________________ "911- the guilt-free supercar"
Current: 2003 C4S Coupe, seal/black
Ex: '02 C4S Coupe, '96 993 Targa, '88 Carrera Sport Coupe
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
OK spoke to CG its 5 or 6 hours so only 2 cars really , So going to see if one of the guys down here wants to tag along then get it booked in _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
FZP Albert Park
Joined: 18 Jan 2015 Posts: 1711 Location: Cheshire
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:07 am Post subject:
Alex
Sorry mate didn't mean to hijack the thread. There were only a couple of questions I can answer directly for you, and I think you raise some valid points about accuracy. All I know is the experience that I the end user gets out of like for like equipment between OPC vs CG was night and day. I guess much in the same way a carpenter and cabinet maker can deliver 2 different results. You wouldn't want a cabinet maker to build your new roof trusses and probably wouldn't a carpenter ant to hand craft you a kitchen. Same tools, different methodologies. _________________ 997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
Phil 997 Donnington
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 12383 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
Sorry Alex didnt intend to on a positive note your thread has prompted me to spend £500 in fuel and a CG geo and bacon butties _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
Any tool is only as good as the person weilding it.
I take my car to a local place that is involved in setting up race cars and track cars. Understanding the effect each measurement has on the handling dynamics is a start.
At least the don't look at you blankly when you talk about castor.
Might be worth asking Chris at CG what he thinks about the accuracy and repeatability of the Hawkeye when achieving his settings. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
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on a positive note your thread has prompted me to spend £500 in fuel and a CG geo and bacon butties 
