Mileage and Private Sale/Pricing

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

I've owned a 997.1 before, so want to try and get in to a Gen2 car if I can stretch. I have seen a nice car with 68k miles on the clock. This is not ideal, and my market to sell if I ever had to would be very limited and trade would knock 5k off of my private price day one.

What is people's opinions on higher mileage cars?

It won't be a garage queen, so the miles will increase. I think its key to get the car for a close as to trade price from day one, to reduce the depreciation. I'm presuming private cars even with OPC warranty should be cheaper than trade/retail?

The car is a 2009 Targa 4S with 68k miles, up for 40K. Trade this is worth 35K. Its hard to price and judge as there are few with such miles on. Ideas on price?
Its on PH currently. It has a OPC warranty till 2019. The car looks amazing, and has an nice spec, no sports seats, but PDK and a PSE. Its due a major service, and the PDK service if I'm right.

Or I am thinking 5k more loan and get one with half the miles from a trader, horses for courses I guess. In a dilemma, as I want a Gen 2, and getting a higher mileage car may be my only course of action, as prices seem to be very strong. I just don't want to be stuck completely in a few years time with an unsellable car. Its a trade off of what I can afford, and not worrying about all my savings in a car, that if I had to shift for whatever reason, work wise or illness, stuck with a car that the trade may not even want. As miles would then possibly be north of 70K.
I'm looking for some advice, its a lot of money, and I don't want to be ruled by my heart, especially with the impending doom of the B r e.....

T8 · 22 Feb 2018

An interesting set of questions and I'm sure you'll get lots of differing responses.

I'll kick off with my thoughts.

My personal research shows that 7.5k per annum seems to be the average that a water-cooled 911 will have done between 3 and 10 years old so an 09 car with 68k miles is right on the average.

Going forward however I think you're right to consider how desirable the car will be with more miles on it. On a modern car 90k+ will seem high and will be approaching that psychological 100k !!! that is a significant barrier to most UK buyers.

Regarding trade / private / dealer pricing you can't have it all ways. Everyone wants to negotiate the best deal they can but it's a fact of life that there will always be a difference between the three.

Generally I've always followed the principle that trade + 10% = the right private price and that trade + 20% is what I'd expect to pay from a dealer.

In Porsche world this principle can easily be skewed as many private buyers expect to get near retail for their car and particularly good cars can command much higher premiums if retailed by a recognised specialist.

If a private seller has a transferrable OPC warranty on their car it should make it more desirable than one that hasn't and should be worth the cost of the warranty more i.e about £1k. That said it could easily be argued by the seller that because it has a warranty it must be in pretty good mechanical condition and therefore be worth more than any otherwise similar car on the private market.

Lots of people buying privately expect a bargain - which is fine - but it really sticks in my craw that some expect to pay no more than trade money. I'm 'old school' and think it's fairest if both the seller and the buyer get something out of doing a private deal i.e the seller gets 10% more than they would from a trade-in and the buyer gets 10% off retail.

Happy Hunting. :thumb:

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

Thanks T8 for the comprehensive reply.

The problem could arise if you pay more privately than trade for a car that only trade will buy, then in affect you have over paid. As the car worth the next day is worth 10% less. A car without high miles I agree, but one that appeals to such a limited market is a risk. I do agree there does need to be some flex between the buyer and the seller, that I think depends on the car in question.

Also if paying cash for a car, surely the seller has better buying power and negotiable skills?
And, it does worry me what a Gen2 would be worth closing on 80-90K miles. Even the reputable dealers I doubt buy cars with 60K plus miles.

Only the right price would put my mind at rest.. There are not any Gen2 cars I can see that have 70K+ miles, so its hard to predict what the market will do, and how difficult the car will be to sell in the future with higher miles.

Its a tricky decision, and you buy 911's from the heart, but I'd like to buy without looking at the odometer on every drive

Windy101 · 22 Feb 2018

I must admit I agree with T8.

Why would a seller go to the bother of selling privately, with the extra associated hassle and risk, to achieve trade price.

T8 · 22 Feb 2018

keendean said:
The car is a 2009 Targa 4S with 68k miles, up for 40K. Trade this is worth 35K. Its hard to price and judge as there are few with such miles on. Ideas on price?

Its on PH currently. It has a OPC warranty till 2019. The car looks amazing, and has an nice spec, no sports seats, but PDK and a PSE. Its due a major service, and the PDK service if I'm right.

That seems an excellent price to me for a Gen 2 car. Most Gen 1 cars are up for that sort of money.

NB: As a comparison there's a 2009 Targa 4S PDK with 70k miles at an OPC up for £48k.

I know which I'd go for.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

And I'm not disagreeing, there should be some flex to ensure it's an incentive for both parties. But, the car I'm looking at has more miles than I would like, so it appeals to a smaller market. My main point is, buying a 997 with 70k miles on it. Some 911's are washed more than driven, so 70k miles could be deemed above average for a 09 plate 911. When looking to value a car with 60k+ miles, it's difficult as the majority of cars for sale are sub 50k.

If someone had a car that they were offering to trade, of course I'd be willing to pay above trade, and find a deal that works to the advantage of both parties. I can see why people do sell to the trade as it negates a of possible noise from the public.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

[/quote]

That seems an excellent price to me for a Gen 2 car. Most Gen 1 cars are up for that sort of money.

NB: As a comparison there's a 2009 Targa 4S PDK with 70k miles at an OPC up for £48k.

I know which I'd go for.[/quote]

There was a Targa 4S for sale last week, 60k miles for 43K. So prices vary massively on higher mileage cars.

T8 · 22 Feb 2018

:?

If you think this one would be worth £35k trade and it seems like it would retail at c£45k then surely £40k is the middle ground you'd expect to pay in a private sale.

I certainly doubt that the £5k extra you spoke of in your first post would get you a low mileage example from an OPC.

ps. Picking up on a point you made about the seller then having cash to buy their next car. I'm pretty sure these days that dealers would prefer people not to buy in cash as they actually make extra money by arranging finance for customers.

rabbitstew · 22 Feb 2018

It is tough decision but depends on what you can afford and how long you intend to keep the car.

When I was looking for my 997 turbo, ideally I wanted one with around 40k max miles. In the end one came up locally, with full history, had just had £8k of work spent on it, only had 2 owners from new, was nearly the spec I wanted, but had 69k miles on the clock. I ummed and arrhhhed for about an hour before snapping it up.

I use it as a daily and do 14k miles a year, and my concern was that after a couple of years it would be approaching the 100k mark and thus be worthless.

But here we are, 2 years later its now on 94k and im still driving it. Had I not purchased it, I could well have been still sitting here waiting for the right car, rather than enjoying driving it. Ive no intentions of selling it any time soon so wont know how much ive "lost" until I do so.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

T8 said:
:?

If you think this one would be worth £35k trade and it seems like it would retail at c£45k then surely £40k is the middle ground you'd expect to pay in a private sale.

I certainly doubt that the £5k extra you spoke of in your first post would get you a low mileage example from an OPC.

ps. Picking up on a point you made about the seller then having cash to buy their next car. I'm pretty sure these days that dealers would prefer people not to buy in cash as they actually make extra money by arranging finance for customers.

I think non OPC if they were willing to buy at that miles, would be circa 40k.
As the one sold the other day non OPC trade/retail was 43k with 60k miles, I may be wrong, this is from memory, I'll dig the advert out.

If I buy from a non OPC, 45k can buy a Gen 2 car. It does not have to be a Targa.

Yes, you are right thinking on, an over sight on my part regarding the garage making money on the finance.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

rabbitstew said:
It is tough decision but depends on what you can afford and how long you intend to keep the car.

When I was looking for my 997 turbo, ideally I wanted one with around 40k max miles. In the end one came up locally, with full history, had just had £8k of work spent on it, only had 2 owners from new, was nearly the spec I wanted, but had 69k miles on the clock. I ummed and arrhhhed for about an hour before snapping it up.

I use it as a daily and do 14k miles a year, and my concern was that after a couple of years it would be approaching the 100k mark and thus be worthless.

But here we are, 2 years later its now on 94k and im still driving it. Had I not purchased it, I could well have been still sitting here waiting for the right car, rather than enjoying driving it. Ive no intentions of selling it any time soon so wont know how much ive "lost" until I do so.

Amazing. All being well, I'd keep the car a long time. This car has if I was to buy it, four previous owners. I know what you mean in terms of just enjoying the car, rather than checking the market constantly. Its like a fever, so when I buy a car, at least I'll have lots of free time. Glad you're enjoying your car, and gives me something to think about. Thanks

Magic919 · 22 Feb 2018

I'd avoid the Targa unless you really must have one and look for the best one you can afford. Miles might be a concern, but higher miles Gen 2s have sold in the past even if there are none for sale now.

Spec and condition will make a difference, so a quick glance at age and price may not tell the full story. A PDK car with PSE is good enough start.

You have to start to expect bigger bills now they are getting older with more miles. I've just fitted discs and pads at about 50k miles and it's not especially cheap.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

I've never driven a Targa, what are they like day to day? Why would you avoid one? They look amazing with the wide body

This car in question had front discs and pads in 2016. It may be due its PDK service too, this I am a little unsure on.

Magic919 · 22 Feb 2018

Any 4 model will have the same wide body.

I wouldn't buy one as they are quite unpopular in the UK and I wouldn't want the Targa roof, even to leave it shut. I sometimes use the roof bars and I expect that's impossible.

The plus side would be the easy access through the rear hatch, but that's not enough for me.

PDK clutch oil change is due for year 6 service. Front transmission too for AWD cars.

keendean · 22 Feb 2018

Magic919 said:
Any 4 model will have the same wide body.

I wouldn't buy one as they are quite unpopular in the UK and I wouldn't want the Targa roof, even to leave it shut. I sometimes use the roof bars and I expect that's impossible.

The plus side would be the easy access through the rear hatch, but that's not enough for me.

PDK clutch oil change is due for year 6 service. Front transmission too for AWD cars.

Thanks for this. So, I need to factor this in plus a major service. I never imagined that the Targa was unpopular? Ideal world a C4S Gen 2. It looks as if I need to save or finance further. My thinking is, if I need to get shot quickly, I need a car that appeals to a market as wide as possible. The Targa glass roof looks smart, and must be super bright and light with the black cabin. And is close as I can get to a convertible, without owning one, this was my thought process.

At least I have food for thought, and have been boring the wife senseless with Porsche talk and pricing.

Its good to hear other people opinions, I understand pricing, and which model is best is of course is subjective, but none the less has all been very helpful.

Mileage and Private Sale/Pricing

keendean

Monza

T8

Super Moderator

keendean

Monza

Windy101

Spa-Francorchamps

T8

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keendean

Monza

keendean

Monza

T8

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rabbitstew

Imola

keendean

Monza

keendean

Monza

Magic919

Mugello

keendean

Monza

Magic919

Mugello

keendean

Monza

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