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tyinsky
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 332
Location: London, UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good points. thumbsup

Once in for a full rebuild, moving up to 3.8 is not a big difference in cost (unless the old, worn parts are being left in place).

Not worried about resale. I bought the car for me to enjoy - otherwise I’d most likely be sealing it or doing a top end. Intending to keep long term. Agree most buyers usually dislike non standard Porsches however I would of paid more for one that had had a decent rebuild were it 3.6 or 3.8.

If I do it the car won’t be an RS replica. Just a RWD widebody with a little more torque.


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nickjonesn4
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyinsky wrote:
All good points. thumbsup

Once in for a full rebuild, moving up to 3.8 is not a big difference in cost (unless the old, worn parts are being left in place).

Not worried about resale. I bought the car for me to enjoy - otherwise I’d most likely be sealing it or doing a top end. Intending to keep long term. Agree most buyers usually dislike non standard Porsches however I would of paid more for one that had had a decent rebuild were it 3.6 or 3.8.

If I do it the car won’t be an RS replica. Just a RWD widebody with a little more torque.

Mine will also stay as a standard looking widebody!


Smile


Hi there. Having originally been set on 3.8 conversion, had a long chat with Richard Chamberlain at CTR about this and he recommended not to bother with the 3.8 unless going to a full £20k++ rebuild. His advice was to get the leak down test done and that a top end rebuild with ARP studs as a precautionary measure would most likely do the trick due to the strength of the 993 engine ie very few need a full rebuild. Mine is getting done in January with ported heads, slightly more aggressive cam and custom exhaust. Aiming for 330-345bhp and a whack more torque. Will be posting up results and progress reports in the new year so hopefully can be of some help in you making your decision.
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nickjonesn4
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickjonesn4 wrote:
tyinsky wrote:
All good points. thumbsup

Once in for a full rebuild, moving up to 3.8 is not a big difference in cost (unless the old, worn parts are being left in place).

Not worried about resale. I bought the car for me to enjoy - otherwise I’d most likely be sealing it or doing a top end. Intending to keep long term. Agree most buyers usually dislike non standard Porsches however I would of paid more for one that had had a decent rebuild were it 3.6 or 3.8.

If I do it the car won’t be an RS replica. Just a RWD widebody with a little more torque.

Mine will also stay as a standard looking widebody!


Smile


Hi there. Having originally been set on 3.8 conversion, had a long chat with Richard Chamberlain at CTR about this and he recommended not to bother with the 3.8 unless going to a full £20k++ rebuild. His advice was to get the leak down test done and that a top end rebuild with ARP studs as a precautionary measure would most likely do the trick due to the strength of the 993 engine ie very few need a full rebuild. Mine is getting done in January with ported heads, slightly more aggressive cam and custom exhaust. Aiming for 330-345bhp and a whack more torque. Will be posting up results and progress reports in the new year so hopefully can be of some help in you making your decision.


Meant to add that like you I will be keeping mine looking like a standard widebody.
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tyinsky
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 332
Location: London, UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like some interesting mods Nick. thumbsup

I’m determined not to change the drivability of the car and trick cams make me nervous. All depends on what you/me/the next person want from the build and I’m probably the odd one here in that I’m not looking for a big leap in power. I’m after a smooth, easy to drive engine that has a little more oomph when overtaking rather than keeping the car in the high revs and getting a much faster car.

Realise there is an urban myth that the 993 engine is bulletproof. Right or wrong, I can’t see that my car will not show any signs of wear in both halves of the engine after +150k. It’s a mechanical object and 20-years old. Makes sense to me to go all the way if the engine is coming out.
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 838
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this helps understand the dynamics better - but although my comments about our 3.7 and 3.9 conversions relate to M96/7 engines - the issues I explained about torque and increased capacity limits are true for all engines.

Last week one of our cars conducted a back to back test between an older 996 3.4 tiptronic converted to 3.7 and a 996 C4S 3.6 (that would normally leave the 996 3.4 well behind).

The outcome was that they performed equally - neither being quicker than the other - and this is a typical way of understanding the differences - in that - a 3.7 capacity running on the same original components will increase torque (which is what drives acceleration) and top end bhp (by virtue of the increased capacity) but usually not quite as much at the top end as it would if it had been designed for that capacity in the first place.

Hence the extra 100cc that the 3.7 had compared to the 3.6 was insignificant as it really just made up for the slight lack of breathing at the top end and the torque made up for the lack of variable valve lift etc.

Similarly we have found in the past that a 996/7 3.6 increased to 3.9 results in a car with performance almost identical to the original std 3.8 version - the extra 100cc's compensating for the other slightly under specified parts of the original cmaller capacity design.

As we specialise in liquid cooled cars we cannot offer direct comparisons with the 993 conversions but I see no reason why the results would not be similar - more torque and acceleration, sharper pick-up but not neccessarily much greater maximum speed.

Baz
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nickjonesn4
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyinsky wrote:
Sounds like some interesting mods Nick. thumbsup

I’m determined not to change the drivability of the car and trick cams make me nervous. All depends on what you/me/the next person want from the build and I’m probably the odd one here in that I’m not looking for a big leap in power. I’m after a smooth, easy to drive engine that has a little more oomph when overtaking rather than keeping the car in the high revs and getting a much faster car.

Realise there is an urban myth that the 993 engine is bulletproof. Right or wrong, I can’t see that my car will not show any signs of wear in both halves of the engine after +150k. It’s a mechanical object and 20-years old. Makes sense to me to go all the way if the engine is coming out.


Yep. If under testing my engine needs a full rebuild I would do the capacity increase but at 80k I would be unlucky. Will be very interesting to see your results and details of the build so please keep us informed.

My brief to Richard was not dissimilar to yours. I won't be going lightweight flywheel and the car won't be tracked it turned into an RS clone. Also no new EMS etc etc Anyway. Look forward to comparing notes!
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tyinsky
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 332
Location: London, UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:
I don't know if this helps understand the dynamics better - but although my comments about our 3.7 and 3.9 conversions relate to M96/7 engines - the issues I explained about torque and increased capacity limits are true for all engines.

Last week one of our cars conducted a back to back test between an older 996 3.4 tiptronic converted to 3.7 and a 996 C4S 3.6 (that would normally leave the 996 3.4 well behind).

The outcome was that they performed equally - neither being quicker than the other - and this is a typical way of understanding the differences - in that - a 3.7 capacity running on the same original components will increase torque (which is what drives acceleration) and top end bhp (by virtue of the increased capacity) but usually not quite as much at the top end as it would if it had been designed for that capacity in the first place.

Hence the extra 100cc that the 3.7 had compared to the 3.6 was insignificant as it really just made up for the slight lack of breathing at the top end and the torque made up for the lack of variable valve lift etc.

Similarly we have found in the past that a 996/7 3.6 increased to 3.9 results in a car with performance almost identical to the original std 3.8 version - the extra 100cc's compensating for the other slightly under specified parts of the original cmaller capacity design.

As we specialise in liquid cooled cars we cannot offer direct comparisons with the 993 conversions but I see no reason why the results would not be similar - more torque and acceleration, sharper pick-up but not neccessarily much greater maximum speed.

Baz


Nice insight. Thanks Baz thumbsup
 
  
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tyinsky
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 332
Location: London, UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickjonesn4 wrote:
Yep. If under testing my engine needs a full rebuild I would do the capacity increase but at 80k I would be unlucky. Will be very interesting to see your results and details of the build so please keep us informed.


My odometer reading is almost double your car Thumb

If I follow through we should have some interesting posts between us in a month or two Smile
 
  
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Rallyeman
Indianapolis


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 2393
Location: WEST WICKHAM KENT


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackel did the 3.8 conversion in his yellow RS tribute, currently for sale in JZM I think
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nickjonesn4
Monza


Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Edinburgh


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyinsky wrote:
nickjonesn4 wrote:
Yep. If under testing my engine needs a full rebuild I would do the capacity increase but at 80k I would be unlucky. Will be very interesting to see your results and details of the build so please keep us informed.


My odometer reading is almost double your car Thumb

If I follow through we should have some interesting posts between us in a month or two Smile


Nice one. Look forward to it Thumb
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Endoman
Österreich


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 966
Location: Bolton U.K.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rallyeman wrote:
Jackel did the 3.8 conversion in his yellow RS tribute, currently for sale in JZM I think

Jackal actually fitted a genuine RS engine a bit more than just P&Cs.
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Cameltoe & Heel
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 1065
Location: Preston - Lancs


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endoman wrote:
Rallyeman wrote:
Jackel did the 3.8 conversion in his yellow RS tribute, currently for sale in JZM I think

Jackal actually fitted a genuine RS engine a bit more than just P&Cs.


Correct that was no conversion, a fully fledged RS unit was sourced at great expense.

Trev
 
  
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ChrisT70
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Mar 2015
Posts: 1480
Location: The Sea


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i liked his car and his website about it, very helpful to amateur tinkerers. wonder what he'll actually get for it though, will buyers see the extra value?
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pzero
General
General


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 4473
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisT70 wrote:
i liked his car and his website about it, very helpful to amateur tinkerers. wonder what he'll actually get for it though, will buyers see the extra value?


Sold.
 
  
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ChrisT70
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Mar 2015
Posts: 1480
Location: The Sea


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any idea how much for in end? Nice car for someone.
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pzero
General
General


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 4473
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisT70 wrote:
Any idea how much for in end? Nice car for someone.


Sorry Chris, info not known to me, but yes, an iconic 911 that I have had the great pleasure of following around Europe's best roads.
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3287
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nik wrote:
Does anyone (other than Williams/cosworth) offer a 4.0 option for the 993?


Matt at Fearnsport is planning to build a 4.0 utilising the RSR crank, Carrillo rods & Mahle 3.8 P&C. Longer stroke rather than huge piston bore "feels" like the right way to go. Going into a 993 Cup car I believe.
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