Bore Liners/IMS BEARING "ADVICE" (CATASTROPHIC FAI

Andyj997 · 6 Nov 2017

Hi All;

I`m new to this forum so hope i have posted this correctly.

REALLY NEED SOME HELP

I'm looking for some advice on my Porsche 997 Gen 1, (Engine Issue)

i purchased the car last year it has approx 98000 miles on the clock 54 plate.

i work overseas so the car is used very rarely, i have just been home and while i was driving the car i heard an engine noise, and as i wasn't 100% sure of the cars history i took the car to a so called specialist.

They offered me a free full health check and i also told them my concerns regarding the engine

they told me its a common problem on these cars the piston liners need replacing, i accepted there diagnostics and let them do the above work.

after getting the car back i drove it steady, but after driving only a few miles i started to hear a tapping noise from the engine then all of a sudden the car over rev`ed and stopped with oil pressure lights etc coming on.

the car is now back with them and the engine has blown itself apart (internally)
I have read on the internet that on these cars the piston liners are a common fault also Intermediate shaft bearing, and these should be changed as a matter of priority if you are replacing the piston liners.

so as you can see i need a little advise on this matter they are saying the car was over rev`ed thus causing it to fail and explode
I'm saying they are specialists and should of known about the bearing problem and this has caused the failure.

L am thinking i may need an independent engineer on my side

Do you offer a service like this as in take a look at there findings as i know they are going to want me to pay for the repairs.

If you feel I'm wrong and I am at fault that is fine but i believe i am correct
and would really appreciate some help and advice

Many Thanks

FZP · 6 Nov 2017

Sorry to hear about this. I'm no expert so I'd suggest you call the go to guys for engine issues, and that's Hartech. They'll be able to walk you through the process of diagnosis and remediation of your issue.
They are well respected, and Baz is a regular contributor to this forum. You will find his knowledge and transparency refreshing.
If I were looking for a Gen 1 I'd take a Hartech rebuild over standard engine every day of the week.
Good luck and we look forward to hearing some good news from you.

-- 997 -- · 6 Nov 2017

Daaaamn, I'm sorry to hear that your engine is damaged, the thing is if it's the IMS bearing that collapsed then it happens without warning, if you asked the company to rebuild your engine then maybe they should have advised you of an upgraded bearing whilst the engine was getting new liners fitted but then on the other hand there not obliged to offer a fitment of a new IMS bearing cos all that was planned was a liner rebuild if that makes sense? So it's like a two thing going on is what they ight say to you,

When I had my engine built I specifically said a few times that I wanted an IMS upgrade and ordered from the USA a larger bearing which costed me alone £600 didn't want to take a risk after rebuild and a piece of mind as well, I asked for my old bearing and to be honest after 63000 miles the bearing was like new and we'll lubricated, would have used it still in honesty..

In your case will be difficult to resolve this... I'd get a lawyer involved and explain I,be ahead of the engine builders!!?

who are the garage who build the engine?

N

Phil 997 · 6 Nov 2017

Its really very hard to be sure but from what you describing Borescore is a slow gradual thing and has symptoms like using a lot of oil and black soot coming mainly from the left exhaust this also leaves a sooty residue on the left of the rear bumper etc.

Did they borescope the car prior to telling you it needed new liners did they identify which bank and which liners as its very very rarely all of them its usually just one bank and most often number 4 and 6 . did they show you the evidence eg pics before and the parts after. many garages mistake the normal wear marks as borescore which it is not borescore in the context we know and its just normal wear.

What your now describing sounds like IMS failure which is sudden and catastrophic. the difficulty you have is proving that anything they did could have caused the failure ,and whether they misdiagnosed the original problem which in turn contributed to the issue you now have.

Not an easy one to sort and we really would need a lot more info to even start to offer any meaningful advice. your best getting an independent specialist to make a full assessment of the parts the car etc and take it from there.

infrasilver · 7 Nov 2017

If it was only a few miles since the rebuild I would suspect the engine wasn't put together correctly or they damaged something in the process? They obviously don't want to pay for the repairs as it is a very costly exercise for them and would rather tell you it was your fault. Also depending on what liners they used it may have slipped in the bore or a gudgeon pin wasn't secured correctly, if it is the IMSB it would be a huge coincidence unless fitted back incorrectly?

It may well be an over rev but lots and lots have over revved without actually damaging an engine, especially to the point of it lunching itself, was the over rev detected at the time of the engine damage? You say it over revved at the time it went faulty am I reading this correctly?

I would 100% get an independent report on the engine damage and the diagnosis before you let them strip the engine at all, once it has been stripped anything could be changed.

RXP. · 7 Nov 2017

Firstly Wow just wow sorry to hear this bud.

Secondly. Can you clarify a few things?

1. What was the exact discussion you had with the specialist when the car went in for its initial diagnosis?

2. Do you have a report of the issues they found after investigation and proposed work to be carried out?

3. After the work was carried out, do you have an itemised copy of the invoice? I.e parts replaced, refreshed etc.

..........

At this early stage, its not entirely clear what has happened but how I am interpreting the situation is as follows:

A. OP does not drive the car much so not entirely familiar with it.
B. OP hears some strange sounds and feels something is not quite right.
C. OP goes to a specialist who then advises OP on known issues of this model car and so suggests work to be carried out.

It is critical at this point to know exactly how they came to the conclusion the bores were scored? As mentioned earlier by phil an expert eye and comprehensive knowledge is required to distinguish between light acceptable scuffing and scored bores.

D. OP researches what he can about the common issues and agrees for work to be carried out in good faith.

Again it is critical to know what exactly you paid for? To me personally if I was to have engine work for scored bores I would expect at the very least the Builder to advise me of replacing the scored bores plus a "whilst we are here and have the engine open, you might want to consider" pitch. Advising to replace all 6 liners, water pump, clutch and upgraded IMS.

I would expect them to at least advise this, and leave it up to me to decide if I wanted to go the whole hog so to speak. Not just for my peace of mind but also for their own reputation, integrity and standard good old fashion business logic.

E. OP drives the car and here we are now.

At this point I am assuming the main issue you are looking for help on is why they did not advise on the IMS and whether or not it can be proven that it indeed was the IMS or something else which went wrong with the rebuild?

If you can shed some more detailed info I am sure someone can come along with some constructive help.

Hope you get it sorted OP.

krispe · 7 Nov 2017

How many miles did you do before the engine went bang?

As it had just been rebuilt were you still running it in and keeping to low revs etc (so not sure how an over rev could have occured)?

Do you have a copy of the over rev report, if not then get one/view it yourself on their diagnositic pc? It will show in hours when the over rev occurred. Only an over rev in band 5 or 6 could cause an engine to lunch itself but in most cases it would still be ok even with a 5. The rev report will show the total engine running hours, if there is an over rev in band 4,5 or 6 at the same hour as the total engine running hour figure, then the garage maybe correct, (but I bet this is not the case).

If the engine failed within the first 1000 miles of the rebuild then it was not put back together properly.

It is possible that the IMS bearing has failed (which it can as mine did that :sad: ) but again this is easy to to see when the engine is apart.

If it is the IMS bearing then that is just really bad luck (although the garage should have suggested replacing it as part of any rebuild). However from the sound of it most likely the engine just was not put back together properly.

resigner · 7 Nov 2017

Can you name the "specialist"? To me, it rather sounds like they did a sharp intake of breath, said "ohhh thats going to be expensive" while $ signs started appearing in front of their eyes...... Did they even Bore Scope it? From what you've said, sounds like they just said "all these need the bore liners and IMS doing" without actually checking the problem.

If we know who this "specialist" is (yes, the quotes are deliberate) then we can give you an idea of if they are for reel, or more on the cowboy side. There are some good engine rebuilders out there, and some bad ones. You may well of stumbled into one of the bad ones. If they have rebuilt the engine, then it falls apart vey quickly, that is very obviously not on. Don't take any crap from them, tell them you want your money back and get it over to Baz or someone else we can recommend.

Where are you based? That will help a lot!

tom_nieto · 7 Nov 2017

Did they offer any kind of warranty? I'd be furious if a newly rebuilt engine suddenly went bang after only a few miles. Even if it is by some coincidence the IMS now failing I think the garage have a duty to offer to strip it down again to ensure their workmanship is up to scratch. I get the impression that there aren't many garages in the UK which would do a decent job of a cylinder re-line, so would be interested if you went to one with a good reputation.

However, it will be very interesting to see an over rev report. A money shift on a newly rebuilt engine could have caused the issue.

Andyj997 · 7 Nov 2017

Hi All,

First of all WOW i didn't expect such a rapid and helpful response
really appreciated..

I have been on the phone today to Grant at Hartech and he has been a fantastic help with some great advise and info

My issue is i took the car there it had an engine noise and as i had just bought the car i wanted a full health check (diagnostic) on the vehicle get everything sorted at once, i made the mistake of not reading up on the known issues of the car beforehand

i took the car to them they had it approx 2 hours then gave us a report
which had on it few coolant hoses, new battery and alternator and engine work piston and liners telling us that is a common issue on these cars
we accepted there diagnostic and said ok do the work

2 weeks later we picked it up
we drove it home which is 30 miles approx at a steady 40/50mph
when we got home we noticed it had used a bit of water we topped it up under there advise of them
we did maybe another 30 miles or so at a steady pace

the next day we went out and drove to a local town 20 miles away
then when setting of to come home on tick over there was a tapping noise
we checked the oil and thought we will drive it home and call them, but with in about 3 miles the car went bang

they came collected and there report says it has been over revved causing failure, nothing to do with the work they have carried out

the ECU readings do have an over revving reading, if understood grant correctly that is over a 4 hour driving period, so it could of been over revved while they had the car as i never did 4 hours driving in the car.

I also say regardless of the over revving this IMS bearing should of been checked/replaced as part of the original diagnostics

Anyway i have emailed them, and things are still amicable so i will see what there next move is.

again thanks for all the help and advise

deMort · 7 Nov 2017

Im not going to make any personel comments on what i think for now ( no insult intended ) but a printout of the rev ranges would be usefull .

This needs to show range 5 at least and i would expect a lot in range 6 for engine damage to have occured like this .

4 Hours ago is as you have said .. 4 hours of engine running whether driven or not since the over rev has occured .

I would think that atm the engine has not been stripped so untill it has its hard to say what might have failed .

tom_nieto · 7 Nov 2017

In your original post you say that the car over revved just before you came to a catastrophic stop. What exactly happened? What range was the over rev in? Were there any leaks or warning lights on? What did the oil level say when you checked it?

Sorry that you're in such a predicament. Hope you can get your car sorted rapidly.

-- 997 -- · 8 Nov 2017

If you don't mind me asking as we all curious to know, who were the engine builders so we can avoid going there for any sort of work, even to Inflate tyres etc, as we don't want them to also go bang!!

J

krispe · 8 Nov 2017

Re: Bore Liners/IMS BEARING "ADVICE" (CATASTROPHIC

Andyj997 said:
but after driving only a few miles i started to hear a tapping noise from the engine then all of a sudden the car over rev`ed and stopped with oil pressure lights etc coming on.

Andy can you explain the above a bit more? I can't understand how the engine could over rev itself? I can only think of a missed gear shift that could cause a catastrophic over rev in range 5 or 6.

Can you post the over rev readings on here? You really need to see them first hand at the garage.

Kryton · 8 Nov 2017

Re: Bore Liners/IMS BEARING "ADVICE" (CATASTROPHIC

krispe said:
Can you post the over rev readings on here? You really need to see them first hand at the garage.

+1

Bore Liners/IMS BEARING "ADVICE" (CATASTROPHIC FAI

Andyj997

New member

FZP

Zandvoort

-- 997 --

Barcelona

Phil 997

Le Mans

infrasilver

Moderator

RXP.

Monza

krispe

Monza

resigner

Barcelona

tom_nieto

Montreal

Andyj997

New member

deMort

Monaco

tom_nieto

Montreal

-- 997 --

Barcelona

krispe

Monza

Kryton

Montreal

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