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NXI20
Approved Trader


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingston wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
As I've rebuilt my engine 3 times now, I can assure you it won't cost anything like £30k, nor is there any reason to think a car that has been driven on road will need a rebuild soon. If & when it does need a refresh, it will only be top end and will cost less than £10k.


youve blown 3 engines, i think someone might need some driving lessons Question Question Question Grin


Someone needs to understand the difference between blowing up an engine & maintenance. The former is usually a result of a lack of the latter.

For the record, I've never blown an engine up in 45 years of owning powered transport of all kinds wack (I have worn a fair few out though...)

Maybe you can come back when you've done over 50K miles on track in the same GT3 & tell us how many rebuilds (or will it be blow ups?) you've had Floor

To clarify, I rebuilt the whole engine at 85K miles but could have simply done a top-end refresh. 10K later & a couple of pistons had issues because the piston supplier hadn't gapped the rings correctly. That was a very minor rebuild. 30K miles after that, a different piston had a ring failure & the engine was rebuilt again with a Mahle motorsport piston & liner kit which with the benefit of hindsight is what I should have used on the 85K miles rebuild. In an ideal scenario that would mean only one rebuild. The engine is still on the original crank, cases, jackets, heads & cams. The bottom end shows absolutely no wear but the rods & oil pump have been replaced for safety.

The car is just about to clock 152K miles & is running like clockwork.
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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Stuart
General
General


Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 5026
Location: Waterworld

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roro wrote:
If I was in the market for one I'd buy it, use it until something went (assuming it would at some point during ownership), then take it to FernSport for a 3.8 when the time came. Job done, win-win, etc etc Very Happy


+1

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jotaking
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 327



PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Someone needs to understand the difference between blowing up an engine & maintenance. The former is usually a result of a lack of the latter.

For the record, I've never blown an engine up in 45 years of owning powered transport of all kinds wack (I have worn a fair few out though...)

Maybe you can come back when you've done over 50K miles on track in the same GT3 & tell us how many rebuilds (or will it be blow ups?) you've had Floor

To clarify, I rebuilt the whole engine at 85K miles but could have simply done a top-end refresh. 10K later & a couple of pistons had issues because the piston supplier hadn't gapped the rings correctly. That was a very minor rebuild. 30K miles after that, a different piston had a ring failure & the engine was rebuilt again with a Mahle motorsport piston & liner kit which with the benefit of hindsight is what I should have used on the 85K miles rebuild. In an ideal scenario that would mean only one rebuild. The engine is still on the original crank, cases, jackets, heads & cams. The bottom end shows absolutely no wear but the rods & oil pump have been replaced for safety.

The car is just about to clock 152K miles & is running like clockwork.
Thumb


These things really do sound bullet proof when you consider they are driven "hard" on track.

Excellent info from someone with some serious seat time in a GT3! Thumb
 
  
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1061
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So has it been sold or not? I cannot see anything on the link showing it as sold.

I have not looked on Pistonheads to see if there has been an autopsy on purchase and sale after such a short period on this GT3 but is anyone in the know. Care to spill the beans?? GT3 are not for everyone though so maybe he just realized they are essentially road going race cars and needs something more compliant for driving in town.

Either way a great opportunity for entry to GT ownership.

Pip
 
  
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Slippydiff
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 143



PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a full on PH autopsy, but you get the idea :

Porsche forum :

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1647873&d=0#seperator

Readers' cars forum :

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1657973&d=0#seperator
 
  
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1061
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that Slippydiff, I have posted on the ownership thread and think he is jumping out before he has to pay out for non warranty (soon to end - Sept) items. The mileage has not really changed so I think it was an impulse buy that he has had second thoughts about. Plus London is not somewhere you are going to rack up miles and get your money's worth on a cheap high mileage motor.

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crash7
Monza


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 206



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree If you were the owner caught into adding £10k for engine work, based on NXI's number, you would be into it for 65k, as pointed out on PH your then only £10k off a car with 110k miles less. - With the warranty soon to expire perhaps the risk out weight the reward!
 
  
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6117



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
Agree If you were the owner caught into adding £10k for engine work, based on NXI's number, you would be into it for 65k, as pointed out on PH your then only £10k off a car with 110k miles less. - With the warranty soon to expire perhaps the risk out weight the reward!


Yes, but after that 10k engine top end you'd then have a very nice engine (arguably fresher than one with 110k less), so you'd still be better off (assuming chassis was fine and had been refreshed as needed)
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6117



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this case was purely a warranty issue - some people just need a warranty whether low or high miles, and as this car was beyond Porsche's policy I think that's what killed it for the guy
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crash7
Monza


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 206



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roro wrote:
crash7 wrote:
Agree If you were the owner caught into adding £10k for engine work, based on NXI's number, you would be into it for 65k, as pointed out on PH your then only £10k off a car with 110k miles less. - With the warranty soon to expire perhaps the risk out weight the reward!


Yes, but after that 10k engine top end you'd then have a very nice engine (arguably fresher than one with 110k less), so you'd still be better off (assuming chassis was fine and had been refreshed as needed)


Would not disagree from a performance perspective but from a residual value perspective you would be in a worse place.
 
  
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Slippydiff
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 143



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
Agree If you were the owner caught into adding £10k for engine work, based on NXI's number, you would be into it for 65k, as pointed out on PH your then only £10k off a car with 110k miles less. - With the warranty soon to expire perhaps the risk out weight the reward!


A quick look on PH doesn't show any 997.1 GT3 Clubsports (fitted with PCCB's) South of £90K.

If (when it becomes necessary) you do an engine build on the Broadoak car, you'd do a 3.8 conversion, chuck a nice exhaust on it and have 440-450hp.
That engine would then be good for another 150k miles minimum ....

Stock 997.1 GT3 suspension isn't particularly expensive to overhaul, the PASM dampers are £200 max per corner to refurb, all the other stuff (bushes, ARB links, top mount bearings, coffin arms etc etc) can be replaced, rebushed or fitted with spherical/solid bearings from a host of suppliers such as Tarrett, Elephant, RSS or BBi etc.

Of course you could do a major refurb of everything in one hit from the engine, suspension etc etc and generate a £25-30k bill, but if that's your intention, you may as well buy a 20k mile £90k car, and "worry" that you'll be devaluing it every time you use and add miles to it.....

As ever, it's swings and roundabouts Smile
 
  
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 5012
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems with GT cars there's those that want to drive them and those that want to invest in them. Fair do's.

Did this one sell?

As a driver, early 50's leaves a contingency. I don't think its a 57k car personally.

When most people buy a GT3 they are buying a dream car, they don't want to have to explain and justify themselves about the high miles to all their pals and then worry about residual values and the difficulties of selling something like this later on. Imagine in the pub with mates. "I just bought a GT3!" Says new owner. "You jammy lucky feccker" says pals, "how much, what colour, is it a CS, how many miles" says pals. "150k miles" says new owner. "Blimey" says pals....thinking is he bonkers? Even the chap who bought it last time was compelled to post a "blog" to help corroborate his decision:lol: and that diss appeared pretty quickly. There are others, a small ish group, who want to drive a car like this and experience the whole "thing" and see the value from that perspective. From here you really wouldn't know much of a difference compared to a 30k miler. Your lap times would be very similar, your net costs a lot less. All about the price as ever Floor
 
  
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Slippydiff
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 143



PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senoj wrote:
It seems with GT cars there's those that want to drive them and those that want to invest in them. Fair do's.

Did this one sell?

As a driver, early 50's leaves a contingency. I don't think its a 57k car personally.

When most people buy a GT3 they are buying a dream car, they don't want to have to explain and justify themselves about the high miles to all their pals and then worry about residual values and the difficulties of selling something like this later on. Imagine in the pub with mates. "I just bought a GT3!" Says new owner. "You jammy lucky feccker" says pals, "how much, what colour, is it a CS, how many miles" says pals. "150k miles" says new owner. "Blimey" says pals....thinking is he bonkers? Even the chap who bought it last time was compelled to post a "blog" to help corroborate his decision:lol: and that diss appeared pretty quickly. There are others, a small ish group, who want to drive a car like this and experience the whole "thing" and see the value from that perspective.


Well it's an interesting perspective, though not one I'm sure I concur with ....

But let me say here and now, I've never felt the need to justify my car purchases to anyone, be they mates. family, forum contributors et all. And I certainly wouldn't feel the need to justify their value, mileage, spec or colour, because quite frankly I don't give a jot what others think.
But furthermore a GT2/3/RS is still that, irrespective of the speedometer reading.
By your rationale a 50k mile CGT with an impeccable service history/folder would be inferior in the minds of your mates down the pub, than an identical though lower mileage car ?

In reality, given the choice between driving around in a 70k mile GT2 or a 10k miles 2 year old E46 M3, I'd take the GT2 all day every day. I may be in the minority in this, but having been around the block a few times with Mezger engined GT cars, I tend to trust my judgement when it comes to "leggy" cars.

Back in 2010 I bought Gavin's old 996 GT2. Considered by lots (mainly internet/keyboard forum "experts") to be a bit "leggy" at 68k miles (IIRC) and 8 years old.

An original panel, totally standard, Basalt black car that had been fettled by Parr and serviced religiously, it cost me the princely sum of just under £35K....



And FWIW recently sold by 911 Sport for close to £90k .....

Five years previously I'd paid £55k for a 12k mile Midnight Blue Comfort spec 996 GT2. The car was immaculate, indeed when I placed it on SOR with Tom at 911 Virgin 3 years later (with 32K miles on it) he commented the interior was the best condition he'd ever seen in a 996.

There was only one fly in the ointment, the previous (and only) owner, a very wealthy individual who'd tracked the car, had little or no talent behind the wheel whatsoever, and as result he'd "abused" it to the degree he'd seen off two sets of PCCB's in 12k miles ! !

With hindsight that wasn't THAT surprising, the car handled appallingly, so no doubting the brakes got a severe workout every time it went on track.

Before buying Gavin's old GT2, I got Mike Burke at Sports and Classic to do an inspection on it. He found a few issues, tired, leaking dampers, exhaust manifold to turbo bolts corroded and close to the point of failure (they did) and a corroded/leaking PAS pipe. He also test drove it and said it was "evil" Very Happy

Despite it's tired (though well set up, by Parr) suspension, it drove and handled superbly, and far, far better than the lower mileage, "abused" Midnight blue car I'd previously owned.

My guess is there's plenty of low mileage 997 GT3s out there that have been similarly "abused" by owners with more enthusiasm than skill (or indeed those mistaking ambition for ability).

Which would you rather own ? a 997 GT3 that's been driven vast mileages on the motorway by one sympathetic owner (and which has been his only mode of intercontinental transport) or a similar car that's been owned and tracked by 3 or 4 trackday "warriors" with more enthusiasm than skill. And let us not forget, the car we're talking about has zero overrevs in ANY of it's rev ranges ...

Abused Midnight blue low mileage GT2, or Gavin's 70k mile sympathetically driven, well maintained car ?

Low miles, occasionally thrashed track slag at £90k ? or perfectly driven and maintained mega miles road car at £58k ? For clarity, that's a £32k "saving"....

I'll let you decide Question
 
  
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NLW73
Imola


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 843
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my old girl is on 75k miles and barely run in Wink

its a car for fcuks sake so it should be driven. the more you drive them the better they seem to get and you gel with the car after a long run (if its not a daily of course)

vases and painting are for keeps and looking at. GT cars are for spanking everywhere full tilt
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Slippydiff
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 143



PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah
 
  
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Desert Dragon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 274



PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slippydiff wrote:
Senoj wrote:
It seems with GT cars there's those that want to drive them and those that want to invest in them. Fair do's.

Did this one sell?

As a driver, early 50's leaves a contingency. I don't think its a 57k car personally.

When most people buy a GT3 they are buying a dream car, they don't want to have to explain and justify themselves about the high miles to all their pals and then worry about residual values and the difficulties of selling something like this later on. Imagine in the pub with mates. "I just bought a GT3!" Says new owner. "You jammy lucky feccker" says pals, "how much, what colour, is it a CS, how many miles" says pals. "150k miles" says new owner. "Blimey" says pals....thinking is he bonkers? Even the chap who bought it last time was compelled to post a "blog" to help corroborate his decision:lol: and that diss appeared pretty quickly. There are others, a small ish group, who want to drive a car like this and experience the whole "thing" and see the value from that perspective.


Well it's an interesting perspective, though not one I'm sure I concur with ....

But let me say here and now, I've never felt the need to justify my car purchases to anyone, be they mates. family, forum contributors et all. And I certainly wouldn't feel the need to justify their value, mileage, spec or colour, because quite frankly I don't give a jot what others think.
But furthermore a GT2/3/RS is still that, irrespective of the speedometer reading.
By your rationale a 50k mile CGT with an impeccable service history/folder would be inferior in the minds of your mates down the pub, than an identical though lower mileage car ?

In reality, given the choice between driving around in a 70k mile GT2 or a 10k miles 2 year old E46 M3, I'd take the GT2 all day every day. I may be in the minority in this, but having been around the block a few times with Mezger engined GT cars, I tend to trust my judgement when it comes to "leggy" cars.

Back in 2010 I bought Gavin's old 996 GT2. Considered by lots (mainly internet/keyboard forum "experts") to be a bit "leggy" at 68k miles (IIRC) and 8 years old.

An original panel, totally standard, Basalt black car that had been fettled by Parr and serviced religiously, it cost me the princely sum of just under £35K....



And FWIW recently sold by 911 Sport for close to £90k .....

Five years previously I'd paid £55k for a 12k mile Midnight Blue Comfort spec 996 GT2. The car was immaculate, indeed when I placed it on SOR with Tom at 911 Virgin 3 years later (with 32K miles on it) he commented the interior was the best condition he'd ever seen in a 996.

There was only one fly in the ointment, the previous (and only) owner, a very wealthy individual who'd tracked the car, had little or no talent behind the wheel whatsoever, and as result he'd "abused" it to the degree he'd seen off two sets of PCCB's in 12k miles ! !

With hindsight that wasn't THAT surprising, the car handled appallingly, so no doubting the brakes got a severe workout every time it went on track.

Before buying Gavin's old GT2, I got Mike Burke at Sports and Classic to do an inspection on it. He found a few issues, tired, leaking dampers, exhaust manifold to turbo bolts corroded and close to the point of failure (they did) and a corroded/leaking PAS pipe. He also test drove it and said it was "evil" Very Happy

Despite it's tired (though well set up, by Parr) suspension, it drove and handled superbly, and far, far better than the lower mileage, "abused" Midnight blue car I'd previously owned.

My guess is there's plenty of low mileage 997 GT3s out there that have been similarly "abused" by owners with more enthusiasm than skill (or indeed those mistaking ambition for ability).

Which would you rather own ? a 997 GT3 that's been driven vast mileages on the motorway by one sympathetic owner (and which has been his only mode of intercontinental transport) or a similar car that's been owned and tracked by 3 or 4 trackday "warriors" with more enthusiasm than skill. And let us not forget, the car we're talking about has zero overrevs in ANY of it's rev ranges ...

Abused Midnight blue low mileage GT2, or Gavin's 70k mile sympathetically driven, well maintained car ?

Low miles, occasionally thrashed track slag at £90k ? or perfectly driven and maintained mega miles road car at £58k ? For clarity, that's a £32k "saving"....

I'll let you decide Question


Good post - I wish I had bought that GT2 with 68k miles - what a fantastic buy in fact I'd say thats the best VFM buy Ive ever heard of for £35k in over 30 years keeping a close eye on the Porsche market. Well done thumbsup

PS bit tougher these days - 2010 Focus RS made nearly £50k at Silverstone Auctions and Pug GTI close to £40k!!!
 
  
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