C2S PDK tuning

toffeeman · 26 Jun 2017

First world problem I know but I'm all over the shop when it comes to choosing my next car. I started off looking at a 997 Gen2 C2S PDK but thought that I might be wanting a little bit more power. I then upped my budget and started looking at a 991.1 C2S. I then decided £60k was too much for a weekend plaything. I even looked at a BMW M4, possibly seduced by the newer tech like HUD/etc. I've now gone full circle and now I'm looking at a 997 Gen2 C2S PDK again. :frustrated:

Ideally, I'd like something N/A with over 400bhp but don't particularly want a GTS. I'm not taken with the 997 Turbo either, especially with the N/A caveat. I really like the Carerra aesthetic. I know N/A engines are hard to extract power from with bolt on mods but looking through the 911Design website, I can see a Softronics remap (+20bhp), an upgraded plenum intake (+15 bhp) and I know cold air intakes claim 10-15 bhp gains. Assuming all the mods take and aren't dialled back by the ECU, this would give around 45-50 bhp for less than £2,000. The softronics blurb does say that the remap is done with current mods in mind but I'm after owner feedback rather than marketing claims.

Does anyone know whether these mods would offer a cumulative increase and give the 45-50 bhp claimed? Has anyone gone down this route themselves?

apollokre1d · 26 Jun 2017

It has been discussed on here recently but basically tuning a NA car won't get much more in terms of power, however drive-ability and fuel consumption may improve. People state these silly dyno figures claiming power gains but everyone knows those can be massaged to anything you like.

Ruling out a GTS and Turbo maybe your best bet would try to find a Gen2 with the X51 Power kit? At least the figures quoted on those are going to be accurate.

jonno_ · 26 Jun 2017

I'd approach any bhp claims for mods with scepticism.

What you could try is taking a gen 2 with powerkit (if you can find one that's not already a GTS....) and add a free flowing exhaust (think Klein or sharkwerks w\100 or 200 cpi cats), lightweight flywheel, underdrive pulley, gt3 throttle body etc then top it all off with a proper remap.
Optional upgrade to 4 litre unit, larger injectors maybe?
Should give you some fun along the way.

toffeeman · 26 Jun 2017

Thanks for the feedback chaps.

I'll do some more research on the X51 power kit option, not many advertised for sale as far as I can see. I'll look into it. :thumb:

wjk_glynn · 27 Jun 2017

Sharkwerks put a 997.2 tuning guide together:

http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/porsc...469-997-2-carrera-s-4-4s-gts-2009-2012-a.html

Obviously they're a vendor, and thus it needs to be viewed through that lens..

But I personally think it's worth a read.

Karl.

Phil 997 · 27 Jun 2017

I have just brought a gen2 3.8 and can confirm that by adding SS headers , 200 cell cats , sports boxes and the rear muffler delete , plus the IPD GT3 throttle body, Sports air filters and a regal motorsports remap mine has been dynoed at 400bhp it started a 385bhp maybe assume a 10bhp loss from new so realistically everything cumulatively has gained 25bhp but it all cost a lot more than 2k . IMO with a few more tiny tweaks I will get the car up to 408bhp this is my target as thats the GTS output but I honestly think you would struggle to get more than that from this engine without spending many thousands heavily modifying the block.
I think you would be looking at 5k to 7k to do what mine has had done dependant on how much you spend on the exhaust , mine is fitted with a cargraphic full race exhaust and they are around £6500, so engine spend of around 8.5k

but something from kline could be half that and very good or for a couple of grand a topgear exhaust which is also very well made.

Now the debate :grin: :grin: is that a lot to spend chasing 25bhp :roll: maybe
Should you still do it :grin: hell yes if you can afford it and can hide the invoices from the wife :thewife: :thewife:
do you really need the extra 25bhp :dont know: 385 is pretty bloody good to start with. but its fun to do and stops me wasting money on silly things like golf , but seriously if you dont spend loads on other hobbies like golf and can justify the spend like that then I say why not.

You will always get differing opinions , some will say its too much to spend chasing a few BHP, others will say the mods dont work but many of those havent actually done or tried them and its just there opinion not based on fact or experience .
What is true is that the gains are not commutative and cant all be added together to a final top BHP , some of the gains are at top end but many give decent wins in the low mid range and for a road car that's really where you want them , as very few will be looking for big top end gains unless you intend to focus the car as a track machine . So ideally you will be looking at the delivery curve of the power not just the final number .

Both my gen1 and gen2 N/A cars had similar mods as have other cars I have owned and the mods do work if your realistic , you would have to spend serious money to get GT3 bhp from a carrera and unless its a project you enjoy doing over time the costs mean you might as well go buy a GT3 .
but as I said at the start of my post to get GTS bhp from a gen2 3.8 is quite achievable for the costs stated in my post.

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: and good luck finding the right car for you , I would test drive both the gen2 2S and 4S as they offer different experiences. :thumb:

Dont forget to consider not just mods for power gains but handling and braking , so lowering and at minimum braided brake lines :thumb:

toffeeman · 27 Jun 2017

wjk_glynn said:
Sharkwerks put a 997.2 tuning guide together:

http://sharkwerks.com/porsche/porsc...469-997-2-carrera-s-4-4s-gts-2009-2012-a.html

Obviously they're a vendor, and thus it needs to be viewed through that lens..

But I personally think it's worth a read.

Karl.

Thanks for this....bookmarked!! :thumb:

toffeeman · 27 Jun 2017

Phil 997 said:
I have just brought a gen2 3.8 and can confirm that by adding SS headers , 200 cell cats , sports boxes and the rear muffler delete , plus the IPD GT3 throttle body, Sports air filters and a regal motorsports remap mine has been dynoed at 400bhp it started a 385bhp maybe assume a 10bhp loss from new so realistically everything cumulatively has gained 25bhp but it all cost a lot more than 2k . IMO with a few more tiny tweaks I will get the car up to 408bhp this is my target as thats the GTS output but I honestly think you would struggle to get more than that from this engine without spending many thousands heavily modifying the block.
I think you would be looking at 5k to 7k to do what mine has had done dependant on how much you spend on the exhaust , mine is fitted with a cargraphic full race exhaust and they are around £6500, so engine spend of around 8.5k but something from kline could be half that and very good or for a couple of grand a topgear exhaust which is also very well made.

Now the debate :grin: :grin: is that a lot to spend chasing 25bhp :roll: maybe
Should you still do it :grin: hell yes if you can afford it and can hide the invoices from the wife :thewife: :thewife:
do you really need the extra 25bhp :dont know: 385 is pretty bloody good to start with. but its fun to do and stops me wasting money on silly things like golf , but seriously if you dont spend loads on other hobbies like golf and can justify the spend like that then I say why not.

You will always get differing opinions , some will say its too much to spend chasing a few BHP, others will say the mods dont work but many of those havent actually done or tried them and its just there opinion not based on fact or experience .
What is true is that the gains are not commutative and cant all be added together to a final top BHP , some of the gains are at top end but many give decent wins in the low mid range and for a road car that's really where you want them , as very few will be looking for big top end gains unless you intend to focus the car as a track machine . So ideally you will be looking at the delivery curve of the power not just the final number .

Both my gen1 and gen2 N/A cars had similar mods as have other cars I have owned and the mods do work if your realistic , you would have to spend serious money to get GT3 bhp from a carrera and unless its a project you enjoy doing over time the costs mean you might as well go buy a GT3 .
but as I said at the start of my post to get GTS bhp from a gen2 3.8 is quite achievable for the costs stated in my post.

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: and good luck finding the right car for you , I would test drive both the gen2 2S and 4S as they offer different experiences. :thumb:

Dont forget to consider not just mods for power gains but handling and braking , so lowering and at minimum braided brake lines :thumb:

Phil, I knew you would offer some sound advice. :thumb:

That's some very useful feedback on the bhp return vs the cost. I think I might not bother chasing power in the C2S PDK as it will be my first Porsche. I'll just enjoy driving it. I can always try it for a few years and if I fancy more power down the line then I can go for a PDK Turbo next.

I noticed in some other threads that you had recently purchased a Gen2 997. I've tried looking around the threads for photos but can't find any, can you post a couple in here of the new motor?

John H · 28 Jun 2017

Just wondering why you've ruled out a 997 GTS..?

I bought mine new in 2011 and simply wouldn't change it. Especially as it comes with PSE, X51 and Sport Chrono as standard - together with the wider rear end.

I've had the SharkWerks muffler by-pass fitted which is superb, giving a great sound track and less weight. This gives the extra BHP you're looking for.

By also using only Shell V-Power fuel, you would get pretty much all you say you need... :thumb:

toffeeman · 28 Jun 2017

John H said:
Just wondering why you've ruled out a 997 GTS..?

I bought mine new in 2011 and simply wouldn't change it. Especially as it comes with PSE, X51 and Sport Chrono as standard - together with the wider rear end.

I've had the SharkWerks muffler by-pass fitted which is superb, giving a great sound track and less weight. This gives the extra BHP you're looking for.

By also using only Shell V-Power fuel, you would get pretty much all you say you need... :thumb:

I love the GTS. The only reason I've ruled it out is that if I was to spend £60k on a 911, I'd go for a 991 C2S rather than a 997 GTS. I did actually up my budget to £60k and started looking for 991 C2S's but it will essentially be a weekend plaything/occasional use car rather than a daily driver. I couldn't justify £60k for that but I can £45k. Yours looks lovely.

apollokre1d · 28 Jun 2017

toffeeman said:
I love the GTS. The only reason I've ruled it out is that if I was to spend £60k on a 911, I'd go for a 991 C2S rather than a 997 GTS. I did actually up my budget to £60k and started looking for 991 C2S's but it will essentially be a weekend plaything/occasional use car rather than a daily driver. I couldn't justify £60k for that but I can £45k. Yours looks lovely.

I guess you're not worried about depreciation? The 991 C2S will be worth less than a 997 GTS in the not so distant future.

toffeeman · 28 Jun 2017

apollokre1d said:
toffeeman said:

I love the GTS. The only reason I've ruled it out is that if I was to spend £60k on a 911, I'd go for a 991 C2S rather than a 997 GTS. I did actually up my budget to £60k and started looking for 991 C2S's but it will essentially be a weekend plaything/occasional use car rather than a daily driver. I couldn't justify £60k for that but I can £45k. Yours looks lovely.

Click to expand...

I guess you're not worried about depreciation? The 991 C2S will be worth less than a 997 GTS in the not so distant future.

Yep, that is a good point. My last car was an M car which depreciated like a stone. Whichever Porker I get, it will be the least depreciating car I've ever owned that's for sure.

Alfaian · 28 Jun 2017

Hi, I think depreciation is a personal thing as for me it doesn't matter.

I buy a car I want and can afford and never think about selling it, never mind at a loss

You have a very good budget for a gen 2 or maybe a lovely 996 turbo :grin:

You can tune the sh!!t out of that ;-)

Good luck, the chase is on 8)

toffeeman · 28 Jun 2017

Alfaian said:
Hi, I think depreciation is a personal thing as for me it doesn't matter.

I buy a car I want and can afford and never think about selling it, never mind at a loss

You have a very good budget for a gen 2 or maybe a lovely 996 turbo :grin:

Good luck, the chase is on 8)

I agree, it's always been about the car for me as well.

Alfaian · 28 Jun 2017

toffeeman said:
Alfaian said:

Hi, I think depreciation is a personal thing as for me it doesn't matter.

I buy a car I want and can afford and never think about selling it, never mind at a loss

You have a very good budget for a gen 2 or maybe a lovely 996 turbo :grin:

Good luck, the chase is on 8)

Click to expand...

I agree, it's always been about the car for me as well.

Another tip. When you find the car you want, don't advertise where it's from on here

You may get gazzumpted :thumb:

C2S PDK tuning

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Phil 997

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John H

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