996 Turbo as an investment?

BlackTurbo said:

I think people with £35k-£45k to spend on a sports car are pretty spoilt with choice at the moment with Audi R8's, Maserati's, BMW M4 and others all achievable in this bracket.

A good indicator would be see what dealers are offering people on their 996TT when attempting to trade in for another car. I put my car reg into webuyanycar just to have a giggle and they offered £10k

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Don't do it - I'll give you £12k :grin:

I don't mind saying i bought mine as a trade/investment but its not been a great one compared to my friends classic cars purchase's of the same price. I purchased it 18 months ago and only recently turned down an offer that would have seen me make a small ish amount on the car.

I still turned it down although an almost ideal spec R8 came up as I just think the Turbo will increase and the R8 will continue to fall. What made it harder is I think this particular R8 is more dramatic and sounds a lot better than the Turbo, in the end i didn't let my heart win.

Investment potential is difficult to predict. Some markers might be:
1. Mileage. Generally under 30k miles and certainly under 40k today.
2. Numbers. Lower the production run, the more likely to offer investment potential.
3. Overall condition reflecting low mileage.

5 years ago could get a buyer into a low mileage 996 turbo for under £30k.
But 5 years on it will have cost £10k in servicing and maintenance. Today if it fetches £40k its break-even or thereabouts. But in time to come???

I had considered adding an SL55 AMG or Jag XKR as a stablemate for the turbo. But my research was that the majority of examples were high-mileage cars probably requiring significant spend on mechanicals and bodywork and were in all probability not going to climb in any value due to mileage and large production runs. The numbers of these examples are simply prolific.

Even Ferrari 360 prices have softened a little but again on the rise - probably drive by mileage and much smaller numbers. So it seems these two parameters may be good predictors of future direction of travel in values.

Anything is a gamble in life. From cars to gold to memorabilia items. Personally I think the 'Porsche Turbo's' are reaching a climax. They're now into 991 by cost comparison.

If you are looking for a Porsche investment I'd suggest digging a little deeper into history. Essentially a Porsche that has won a race title and has featured in magazines. Or a Porsche that had a limited production run. Rather similar to the 911R.

Cheshire911 hit the nail on the head in terms of future profit. The flaw with car investments, motorbikes or any vehicle is the cost incorporated with storage. Fluids need draining or replenishing. Rubber parts will oxydise and start to crack, rather like tyres, window seals, suspension parts.

Essentially what you're looking for is the next fad.

Personally I'd say stick with bricks and mortar. You can make more profit in a shorter period of time. Invest in a buy to let and get tenants to pay the remaining mortgage.

I understand your 996T question, and my answer is you've missed the boat. My prediction for the future will be a 997.2 Turbo or GT specification. The last of the true Porsche production before the government and EU laws placed huge restrictions on Manufacturers. Hence now Porsche make poxy engines with turbos bolted. Basically it's a Ford Turbo with an expensive badge.

cheshire911 said:

I had considered adding an SL55 AMG or Jag XKR as a stablemate for the turbo. But my research was that the majority of examples were high-mileage cars probably requiring significant spend on mechanicals and bodywork and were in all probability not going to climb in any value due to mileage and large production runs. The numbers of these examples are simply prolific.

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If you look for a MY 2007 SL55 with the F1 Pace Car pack on it you will find them very rare indeed. These have all of the engine mods, interior upgrades and gearbox changes which were done throughout the life of the car, and importantly have the later suspension which was fitted to that model year only, it is better and much reliable than the earlier system. I picked one up on 47k miles, so they are around if you are lucky enough to find one. I find a great alternative to the turbo, much more of a relaxed cruiser but has masses of torque and great noise, not to mention that the roof goes down. With just over 500hp it isn't exactly slow either. It is effectively the 'Turbo S' of the SL55 world. I have put 3k miles on mine in 8 months, including a trip to Stuttgart.

MC

The F1 pace car pack is indeed rare. But as I already have an E-class W211 daily car, I decided against another MB on the drive after speaking to my MB dealer and MB Indy.

The Jaguar research told me to avoid it like the proverbial plague. And its a slush box auto which I wasn't keen on anyway (though lots of torque).

So I followed my research and went V8 in a different direction of travel.
Its also rising in value at around 12-15% per annum and very small production numbers, low mileage with only 25k miles, a full inspection by a leading specialist and service, a great ownership grin and that awesome snarl and crack of a V8 in full operatic aria mode as it hits 7500 on the red line. No need to listen to CD's or the radio!

Life's full of choices. Some may yield profit at the end of the ownership experience but hopefully, all will be great enjoyment in whatever you seek from that choice.

The idea of getting a return on a car which you can enjoy is almost irresistible and one that has crossed my mind many times. If you want to be successful though you have to be very careful and /or have a large slice of luck.

As an investment, you need to earn approx 3% (inflation, which is set to rise) plus maintenance costs just to break even! Chasing Classic cars and Wheeler dealers etc illustrates that even the experts get it wrong and often get burned. Therefore, this is not something you should not go into with essential funds, but if you have spare funds that you are prepared to have a punt on.

I couldn't resist and have had a couple of classics from 40s and 50s and recently had an MG TC. Whilst great fun and many hours of tinkering about, they are a self funding hobby rather than something that will produce a huge return. There is always a chance that values of these could rise..Oh how I wish I had bought that E type 6 years ago! £35k then, and pushing £100k now.

The real returns are on those low mileage cars you can't use (to preserve the mileage), that bottle of wine / classic brandy you can't drink, and that nice artwork you can't display to prevent it fading. My wife has a 'paper' return on a Bob Dylan print she bought a few years ago, but it is hung in the darkest part of the house.

I guess what i am saying is that you will be extremely lucky make any real return on a daily driver that is adding miles and picking up usage scuffs and bumps.

My favorite would be to lock away a nice early mid 2000 Aston Vanquish S. There are a number of low milers about. My friend has done that and drives a DB7 which not losing money. Both are limited production compared to 996 Turbo. Even though he has made good 'paper' returns in the past, there is no guarantee that that will continue, so I'm not tempted!!

Bluebird911 said:

The real returns are on those low mileage cars you can't use (to preserve the mileage), that bottle of wine / classic brandy you can't drink, and that nice artwork you can't display to prevent it fading.

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^This.

It was notable as the Porsche RS trackday at Oulton that a few very nice cars in the paddock - arguably the most 'investable' and certainly among the most expensive - were not on track. The owners were merely spectating.

I get that and can see where the enjoyment in that comes, and also that an investment car needs to keep the mileage count low, but it's not for me and it's not for the whole raft of other owners pounding their cars around the circuit.

I don't have the money or space to lock away a whole, 'investment grade' car. So that settles it. :grin:

A wider debate is what will happen in the future...

E Types, Aston DBs etc are coveted by older folk who admired them in their youth.

Surely the younger generation will favour 'modern classics' which they aspired to before they could afford them.

Is it possible that older cars might just fall out of favour with time?

Robertb said:

A wider debate is what will happen in the future...

E Types, Aston DBs etc are coveted by older folk who admired them in their youth.

Surely the younger generation will favour 'modern classics' which they aspired to before they could afford them.

Is it possible that older cars might just fall out of favour with time?

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Yes, I agree there are many motivators to buy classic things and the ones you have mentioned are some of them.

As you say it is possible, and it often happens, that cars fall out of favour. With classic cars you need to know when to sell as much as when to buy! The sell decision is often very difficult if you become emotionally attached to the car. It has to be treated as a commodity.

T8 said:

Just had a quick review in all the usual places and it looks like the bubble has burst on values. There's an awful lot of cars now around for c£35k.

Those that bought similar cars at £25k will still be feeling smug but those that paid £40k+ a couple of years ago won't be so happy. Actually that's not true ..... I'm sure they'll be really happy IF they're enjoying driving their car.

At £35k-£40k there's still nothing out there that gives so much value-for-money but it looks like the only 'investments' will be those with very low mileage.

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I just had a check to see if the 4rse has dropped out of the market as I noticed your post the other day Terry, but seems to me that prices are holding up fine. No sub-60,000 mile manual coupes for less than £40k on PH, AT or eBay, and the one at £40k isn't a car that I would personally be interested in if looking (meridian with grey). Hasn't really been a big bubble as such on 996 Turbos, not compared to some car bubbles of the last few years.

My view is that because prices have seen some increase over the last 5 years, owners have felt justified in spending the outlay to keep them in the best condition. So I think average condition of cars is probably higher than it was when prices were lower. I see people spending serious money on this black sheep of a 911, and they probably wouldn't do so unless a. they were enjoyable, worthy cars, and b. they were able to do some man-maths justification. Let's hope the prices of 996 turbos continue to hold up, it keeps the owners happy, the garages busy, and holds up the price of other 911's too (not least the facelift water-cooled turbo known as the 997T :wink: )

MisterCorn said:

cheshire911 said:

I had considered adding an SL55 AMG or Jag XKR as a stablemate for the turbo. But my research was that the majority of examples were high-mileage cars probably requiring significant spend on mechanicals and bodywork and were in all probability not going to climb in any value due to mileage and large production runs. The numbers of these examples are simply prolific.

Click to expand...

If you look for a MY 2007 SL55 with the F1 Pace Car pack on it you will find them very rare indeed. These have all of the engine mods, interior upgrades and gearbox changes which were done throughout the life of the car, and importantly have the later suspension which was fitted to that model year only, it is better and much reliable than the earlier system. I picked one up on 47k miles, so they are around if you are lucky enough to find one. I find a great alternative to the turbo, much more of a relaxed cruiser but has masses of torque and great noise, not to mention that the roof goes down. With just over 500hp it isn't exactly slow either. It is effectively the 'Turbo S' of the SL55 world. I have put 3k miles on mine in 8 months, including a trip to Stuttgart.

MC

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+1 for the SL 55 as a great stable mate for the Turbo.....
I have had mine for 10 years now and it's on 28k miles ...! Absolutely pristine , looks and drives almost like new .... there are a few greaks and groans from her now and again( or maybe that's from me !)
I did the same Stuttgart Run to the 2 museums with my son a few years ago after a Porsche day at Silverstone ( doesn't get much better than that )
Arrived in Carlisle after 11 hours driving and tunnel time , stepped out as if I had sat in my armchair ...
Great long distance cruiser, great everyday car .. not a sports car in the way a Porsche is but great car in many more ways ...Strange thing is , I am a hardcore Porsche man but the SL has endured where my Porsche taste has changed back and fore ....testament to the car....

As the others have said you have to factor in your ownership costs versus your initial purchase and possible future value ...personally I think you need to buy a Turbo S at this point , the standard Turbo has done its dough ( to quote Zingari!)

Jibaro said:

T8 said:

Just had a quick review in all the usual places and it looks like the bubble has burst on values. There's an awful lot of cars now around for c£35k.

Those that bought similar cars at £25k will still be feeling smug but those that paid £40k+ a couple of years ago won't be so happy. Actually that's not true ..... I'm sure they'll be really happy IF they're enjoying driving their car.

At £35k-£40k there's still nothing out there that gives so much value-for-money but it looks like the only 'investments' will be those with very low mileage.

Click to expand...

I just had a check to see if the 4rse has dropped out of the market as I noticed your post the other day Terry, but seems to me that prices are holding up fine. No sub-60,000 mile manual coupes for less than £40k on PH, AT or eBay, and the one at £40k isn't a car that I would personally be interested in if looking (meridian with grey). Hasn't really been a big bubble as such on 996 Turbos, not compared to some car bubbles of the last few years.

My view is that because prices have seen some increase over the last 5 years, owners have felt justified in spending the outlay to keep them in the best condition. So I think average condition of cars is probably higher than it was when prices were lower. I see people spending serious money on this black sheep of a 911, and they probably wouldn't do so unless a. they were enjoyable, worthy cars, and b. they were able to do some man-maths justification. Let's hope the prices of 996 turbos continue to hold up, it keeps the owners happy, the garages busy, and holds up the price of other 911's too (not least the facelift water-cooled turbo known as the 997T :wink: )

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I don't think that your last part of statement is correct in respect to the 996 Turbo propping up the 997 Turbo values .... as the 997 Turbo is in essence a better car and like for like cars values are relatively higher .... and WILL rise ....in future..

Jibaro said:

T8 said:

Just had a quick review in all the usual places and it looks like the bubble has burst on values. There's an awful lot of cars now around for c£35k.

Click to expand...

I just had a check to see if the 4rse has dropped out of the market as I noticed your post the other day Terry, but seems to me that prices are holding up fine. No sub-60,000 mile manual coupes for less than £40k on PH, AT or eBay,

Click to expand...

You're right that asking prices for sub-60k manual cars are still much the same as they rose to a couple of years ago. In my mind that makes them great cars to buy and run but not to buy as an investment.

My point was that there are currently loads of 996 Turbos available for a lot less money than was being asked over that last two years.

i.e On AT alone there are currently 11 manual cars and 13 Tips advertised for less than £40k. 18 months ago you'd have struggle to find more than a couple.

For 996 Turbos and 997 Turbos it seems that mileage is a becoming a real factor regarding current values and investment potential. Asking prices for average to above average mileage cars have fallen of late whilst asking prices for low mileage cars have soared.

Agree that it does appear to be very mileage dependent

On Autotrader we have 81 996Ts of all flavours up for sale, with prices from £30K for a Cat D, up to £70K for a low mileage example at an OPC. However, factor in mileage and we have 25 cars sub 50K miles (prices start at £42K) and only 8 cars sub 40K (prices start at £49K if you also add manual into your specification, of which there are only 3 cars for sale.)

I would agree with previous views that these cars are not set to rocket in price yet, but it can be possible to run one with the steady increase in price at least covering your running costs - which cannot be a bad thing in itself!