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Finally, IMS, is this the answer and ultimate closure.

Could we sticky this thread? It's got mega information in it.
 
Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!
 
EGTE said:
Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!

Agreed MODS can someone please sticky this thread as it's one of the best reads re this subject on the internet. And this subject is one one the most emotive regarding these cars. :thumb:
 
I'm not sure what the thread ultimately delivered though. I've seen the latest issue of Porsche and 911world and they have apparently just done a three issue spread on the M96/97. This
is a top magazines most concerted effort yet to get clarity I would imagine. I only got the third installment which includes a sort of round up of everyone and anyone in the M96/97 game and their various 'solutions.'

So you flip over the page after they do their final round up and what do you see? After all the analysis, deep investigation and lengthy conversation with the 'top people in the industry,' you see a half page advert from L&N with the statement 'Fact; the IMSB is semi submerged in oil. Oil is not the problem - it's the bearing.' Right across on the opposite page is another half page DOF advert with a big statement, 'it's not the bearing, it's the oil feed,' and also on that same double page advert spread is a half page advert from Hartech who from what I can interpret and extrapolate out of their lengthy posts don't have much time for either of the two so called solutions advertised next to their own advert. Yet Hartech are mentioned as prime consultants for the article - how frustrating must that be!

It's all just a bit absurd at this point, descending into the realms of ludicrous comedy that a magazine does what appears to be such a huge investigation and yet ultimately end up with the key players still at complete odds to each other, all featured in the same summary article.

And of course, all the time, the great elephant in the room, the ongoing borderline criminal silence from Porsche themselves. Who seem to have absolutely nothing whatsoever to contribute or ever have. I think it's time for a 911uk open letter to Porsche to be honest.
 
Phil 997 said:
EGTE said:
Repeating my request to sticky this post......too useful to waste!

Agreed MODS can someone please sticky this thread as it's one of the best reads re this subject on the internet. And this subject is one one the most emotive regarding these cars. :thumb:

This thread is being reviewed by the Mods team/ 911uk admin.
 
Niall996 said:
So you flip over the page after they do their final round up and what do you see? After all the analysis, deep investigation and lengthy conversation with the 'top people in the industry,' you see a half page advert from L&N with the statement 'Fact; the IMSB is semi submerged in oil. Oil is not the problem - it's the bearing.' Right across on the opposite page is another half page DOF advert with a big statement, 'it's not the bearing, it's the oil feed,' and also on that same double page advert spread is a half page advert from Hartech who from what I can interpret and extrapolate out of their lengthy posts don't have much time for either of the two so called solutions advertised next to their own advert. Yet Hartech are mentioned as prime consultants for the article - how frustrating must that be!

I think the key is in the above. Hard to navigate through all the promotion. Starts to sound of "Sea Monkeys" and "penile enlargement" :p
 
Problem with magazines is it's hard to tell whether the supposed article is genuinely a fact based unbiased investigation or a sales led and advertiser funded advert hiding behind the guise of investigative journalism .
These mags are all about sales and ads and of course if that was the case the stories would be very biased recommending the advertisers and suggesting the fixes were done and would be wooley and inconclusive.
It seems highly suspicious to me that there are huge half page ads from the companies involved who clearly don't have it in there commercial interest for there to be a cheap easy solution ,and it really doesn't sound like an unbiased representative article.
So I for one will be treating it as the advertiser focused sales campaign that it appears to be and will be taking it with a large pinch of salt. :bandit:
 
Thanks for stickying this, mods :thumb: :thumb:

I'd far sooner believe this thread than a magazine article, as the guys say above.
 
I'll tell you where I stand on this today. It's a bit of a 'if you can't beat them, join them' scenario really. I remember when the green movement was beginning to get quite significant, watching the CEO of a very large global company saying on TV, 'Look, I have no idea if it's true or not, but if our customers think its true then we have to go along with it. Simple.'

There are certain realities at play when it comes to IMS. Porsche will probably never ever comment let alone do anything remotely consumer centric like provide a cost effective (or free - Lol!) approved Porsche solution.

Certain magazines will continue to cut and paste material regardless of whether it's been long disproven or not. They're not investigative journalists or engineer'.s I don't particularly blame them. They're in the same boat as the rest of us.

The market for M96/97 preventative work is pretty significant. 150K cars or so! It's pretty lucrative and a number of companies will seek market share in that space, with various 'solutions.' So for many years to come, there is going to be a continuous marketing campaign in the magazines and on the net to drive market share of the various M96/97 preventative /cures'. And when every single IMS bearing has been replaced along with a Direct Oil Feed added and IMS Guardian's installed etc. etc., and the market has dried up, they'll all suddenly be due a 're-replacement' at 40k miles for about a grand or your engine will implode.

So the white noise and cacophony is not going to go away. 996/7 buyers guides will be a quarterly regular on Total911 for years to come. Myths and solutions will be recirculated time and time again as new buyers enter the market continuously. New videos will emerge on You Tube by new engineering companies keen to get a piece of the action, in a market where a 10euro bearing can sell for 900euro. We're talking Hermes type margins here. All facilitated by the vacuum created by the cynical cronies at Porsche A.G. And what magazine journalist is ever going to doorstep one of the continuous line of PR men and PR 'engineers' sent to them to promote the latest PR stunt/Halo model (that is already sold out). Not one because that'll be the end of their cosy relationship and invites to drives these cars. I have yet to come across one single instance of a Porsche magazine journalist asking one single Porsche representative in print or on video about the issue in spite of the fact hat their busy printing about three articles a year on it. FFS!

So ultimately, and I see it happening already, every 996 owner is going to have to get it done if they want to sell their car onwards at it's real value. The question will be routine - 'have you have the bearing done mate?'

Until someone wins a legal case against one of the 'solution' suppliers whose product fails or wins a case against a magazine pushing a certain products that subsequently fail, the world at large has bought into it and it is therefore de facto the same as having to have a decent set of tyres on your car when your selling , or cleaning it!. So if you're getting that clutch changed, you might as well get that IMS box ticked regardless of whether you believe in L&N's bearing or whomever's or not. Whether you need it or not doesn't matter. You may well come to sell the car before the next clutch job and you're guaranteed to get the 'what's the story with the bearing mate? question. The tidal wave of marketing cannot be withstood. Fear marketing is the oldest version in the book. In fact epitomized by L&N's now infamous advertising 'pop, pop bang!' campaign.

So, suck it up, and pop it in!
 
I haven't time to read back through this whole contribution wither - and we haven't posted on this subject for a while because everyone seems to be getting the message - but I think to repeat our post of Dec 2015 achieves two things - firstly that not every specialist exploits concern to make exaggerated claims and secondly that the power of Internet Forums eventually allows a message to get across - amply described in the last post.

Just one additional statement I would like to convey and reinforce is that is that the larger IMS bearing in the later cars really is a solid reliable solution (especially with the outer seal removed).

In the years ahead many engines will need a rebuild anyway and it usually costs little different to wait for an early bearing to fail (or a liner to score or crack) and rebuild it with the best solution and may prove a better investment than trying to avoid the IMS bearing failure only to find the solution chosen didn't last that long or something else failed to require a rebuild anyway when the most reliable solution could be incorporated at the same time.

This is a relevant extract of what we posted last year:-

We are not only aware of all the types mentioned (thanks) but have seen most of them having failed.

The lateral loads on the IMS are not established but a ball bearing is designed to work both ways and with a splash oil supply and we have had discussions with a lifetime bearing manufacturing executive (who happened to spend a lot of time researching all the options and available bearings and owns a Boxster S) and he agreed that he thought it would need something better than a flat roller bearing end face (unless it also had a pressure oil feed) - but no one will have tested enough to destruction to confirm or deny anything - except that we receive and repair 4 to 5 engines/week (which has increased from around 2 to 3/week a few years ago) and I think the feedback this provides about the condition of original bearings, worn bearings and different IMS kits combined with our basic engineering knowledge is about as good a clue as to what the true situation is that anyone could provide.

You may remember (or can check back and find) that we were very unimpressed with a idea of a ceramic type many years ago (before they were in general use and known to fail) and have had two in here having failed in the last few weeks - I seem to remember we suggested they would be no better than the cheaper std bearing (possible worse?).

But you must appreciate (as we do) those specialists that try and provide solutions for problems that the manufacturer should have sorted out for their customers first. Usually spending money to genuinely try and find excellent solutions (and I do think they are more motivated by a belief in the success of their product and how it will help owners than doing it purely for commercial rewards) - but if the main manufacturer with a superb reputation can get it wrong - it is expecting a lot for most general technician specialists to find a better solution on much more limited funds in with far less test opportunities and resources. So I prefer not to knock those that don't always get it right while being frank about the difficulties some problems create that are often almost impossible to improve without huge expense and modifications.

The IMS bearing is a difficult problem to improve on in the space available without huge cost while the larger ball bearing seems (from all feedback and experience) to be totally reliable (and is available).

What to do will unfortunately always be a gamble and it is the odds that should influence decision making.

Unless there is an obvious reason to get into the smaller bearing in situ - I suggest it is a better bet to ignore it (or take the seal out if you are close by with the flywheel off and know what to do so you don't loose cam timing and can replace the outer carrier without straining the weak spindle).

If you were lucky enough to find the bearing damaged but having spread no debris anywhere - it must be worth carefully replacing the bearing and spindle.

We are reluctant to retail our replacement bearing, spacer and spindle kit because we suspect some owners will damage their engines trying to fit it (or have a premature failure later) but we will do so ourselves if requested - but without our usual cast iron guarantees. There are plenty of others now with their own kits that are prepared to fit them for their customers.

I think this whole range of cars are really superb - among the very best cars (on the whole) that Porsche ever produced and far less expensive than they would have been if the engines were more reliable - in fact - looked at in numbers - they represent superb buys with relatively little risk - and if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a failure - it is not too expensive to not only repair it but also improve those weak areas to result in an even better car that will appreciate in value.

It would seem to me to be a great shame to spend a lot on an apparent IMS "upgrade" only to find that later the engine needs rebuilding anyway and could have then been fitted with a much better solution for little more cost at the same time.

You must make allowances when I offer replies that sometimes I am referring to a theoretical issue someone has raised, or countering an incorrect technical conclusion or opinion and not always discussing what to do.

Unfortunately there is no good easy reliable permanent answer to the IMS small bearing issue without stripping and rebuilding the engine but plenty of good reliable and affordable "upgrades" if the engine is apart - as long as you also avoid those issues where some specialists do (probably out of ignorance or greed) promote a solution that has been proven to be short lived and often results in an engine requiring a second rebuild shortly after the first.

END OF REPEAT!

I think the above shows that we at least didn't try and exploit the situation and did try and provide well researched answers and that despite the often used accusations of "scare mongering" plodding on with accurate responses eventually achieves some understanding for readers that is useful to all.

The original double row bearing created more running in metallic particles to mix with the remaining grease and often lead to premature failure - but if they survived that and the seal was worn to allow oil to enter (as most remaining are old enough now to be) they often then managed to last very well and as most early failures were covered by warranties this may have influenced statistics taken later that mask the true picture.

Baz
 
picture of the larger type IMS bearing and housing
 

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